Author Topic: roman catholic marriage dispensations  (Read 1128 times)

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 03:19 GMT (UK) »
There are multiple reasons why a dispensation might be necessary (they still exist)
Consanguinity - Too close a blood relationship
Time - Marriage during a prohibited period, such as Lent and Advent
Place - Marriage in other than the bride's parish.
Religion - One party not Catholic.

Note that pregnancy is NOT, as such, a reason to require a dispensation. It could be a motivator behind the marriage, of course.


although the bride herself was catholic, her father was not, -her mother was a catholic and they married in a registry office - could this be a reason or no? throughout census forms her father continues to show his religion as COI while his wife and children are catholic

Just saw this.
What that means is that as far as the Church was concerned, her parents were unmarried (unless they also had a church marriage).
I have seen notes on dispensations or other church actions as being "for the avoidance of doubt".
Sometimes children were double baptized.
If there was doubt as to whether she was Catholic or CofI, I could see that a dispensation in religion might have been considered appropriate.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 03:23 GMT (UK) »
Earlier, I put down consanguinity as a reason for a dispensation. That is not quite correct. Affinity is the correct term. i.e. relationship by marriage is included in determining degrees of prohibited relationships. So, you can't marry a sister-in-law, etc. - the problem Henry VIII of England famously ran into.

That being so, you have to include relationships by marriage as well as blood.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex

Offline riannisuileabhain

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 03:24 GMT (UK) »
Related thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=855752.0
I wrote another reply to that thread last week but I lost it.

Several reasons for dispensations; some were mentioned on the other thread. It was I who suggested that a pregnancy might have been a reason for dispensing with the requirement to read banns on 3 Sundays. That would have been for the purpose of hastening a marriage to avoid scandal.
You should be able to find other threads on the topic of dispensations by selecting the "Search" tab at the top of this page and putting dispensation as a search term. I've contributed to some and they may have links to sources of further information.
An article "Catholic Marriage Dispensations" mentions dispensation for banns. The marriages on this were in Canada.
www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2011/08/marital-dispensations.html


thanks for all your help. this marriage is different to the one in the other post but they married in a similar area. was just wondering what a dispensation could mean in this context because as far as i am aware neither the bride or groom are related in any way, and the marriage hadn’t taken place in any catholic holidays .

You know all four grandparents for both parties?

You know what her home parish was?

When exactly was the marriage?


yes i know all 4 grandparents for both parties , no matching surnames. the bride’s parish was also the grooms parish , the marriage took place on 13 July 1895.

But was the parish where they were married the brides's parish?

Was the priest who performed the marriage a priest of the parish?

Could they be 3rd cousins?

I think the most likely possibility is that the dispensation is one of those in time - in particular that for insufficient notice.

oh, i wasn’t aware that insufficient notice of the marriage to the priest/parish was a reason that you could need a dispensation for, very interesting! They married in the brides parish which also happened to be the grooms parish and as far as i’m aware they were not related. the time reason seems the most plausible in this case. as for the religious difference, i have confirmation that she was baptised as a roman catholic but i suppose back then they could’ve easily gotten something like that mixed up. thank you!

Offline riannisuileabhain

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 03:29 GMT (UK) »
Earlier, I put down consanguinity as a reason for a dispensation. That is not quite correct. Affinity is the correct term. i.e. relationship by marriage is included in determining degrees of prohibited relationships. So, you can't marry a sister-in-law, etc. - the problem Henry VIII of England famously ran into.

That being so, you have to include relationships by marriage as well as blood.


as far as i am aware, the only thing the bride and groom had in common was that they lived on the same street. the grooms parents were from wexford and the groom himself was born in galway. the bride’s family had been located in dublin for as long as i can track back , so the possibility of having an in law in common seems uncommon.


Offline Wexflyer

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 03:32 GMT (UK) »
Then we are left with insufficient notice. Banns were supposed to be published for three consecutive Sundays before the marriage. If there was insufficient notice, this impediment could be removed by dispensation.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex

Offline riannisuileabhain

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 03:35 GMT (UK) »
Then we are left with insufficient notice. Banns were supposed to be published for three consecutive Sundays before the marriage. If there was insufficient notice, this impediment could be removed by dispensation.


very interesting, thank you so much for your help! :)

Offline heywood

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 08:04 GMT (UK) »
I thought Denunciations was concerned with Banns - or not (dispensing with Banns).
On the example I posted in another thread, the records have a column for ‘Denuntiationes’ (Banns) and a separate column for ‘Impedimentum’ (consanguinity and affinity, I think we learned a long time ago).
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 14:52 GMT (UK) »

i attached a picture for context


The snip doesn't give context. All it tells us is that there was a dispensation.
Could you please either post a link to the source or state the name of the church, the parish, and names of the people being married. I see that you have given the date as 13th July 1895. With those facts we can see all information written about the marriage and look at it in context of other marriages in the register.
 
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: roman catholic marriage dispensations
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 30 November 21 15:09 GMT (UK) »
A thread about dispensations from a few years ago. Contains replies from Wexflyer and heywood. Wexflyer looked at the register page and then gave an opinion.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=766756.0 
There are other similar threads.
Added. Another new one from yesterday.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=855910.0
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