Author Topic: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes  (Read 1050 times)

Offline margaret1

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 00:05 GMT (UK) »
There is also a WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers record for him on Fold3.
It's dated 7 December 1917 and includes this address: 27 Gibbon Street, Beadford, Manchester.

Thank you Hillhurst - could the address be Bradford Manchester? Also I don't have a sub for Fold3 so do you know what information is included on the Pension Record Card and Ledger apart from his address, i.e., does it include next of kin?

I really appreciate your time spent on this,

Margaret  :)
All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only

ARCHIBALD/ADAMS/BROWN/GORDON/WILSON/Midlothian
CADDY/COPPIN/DIONYTHORNE/GEDYE/GIDDEY/GIDDY/GROWDEN/THOMAS/Cornwall
CAREY/France/Kent/NZ 
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Offline Hillhurst

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 00:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi Margaret - the Pension card address is Bradford (not Beadford). The "r" in the handwriting looks like an "e". Apologies for any confusion caused. No other names associated with this address.

Also on the reverse of the card is "DM 321885". Not sure what that designates. 

Offline Hillhurst

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 00:59 GMT (UK) »
The front of the Pension card is stamped with these handwritten details:

Ad 5.12.1917  at 30/-  from 8.12.1917 to 12.2.1918
Chelsea number 181853
Received 10.12.1917

NOTE: Since all those who received an army pension were technically Chelsea Pensioners all were therefore given a ‘Chelsea Number’ which was unique and a means of avoiding the occasional confusion between the Army Number and the Regimental Number a soldier was given. 

Offline margaret1

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 01:14 GMT (UK) »
Hi again Hillhurst,

No apologies needed regarding the address.

The Chelsea pensioner information is invaluable also.
Does the pension card have Thomas's date of birth by any chance?  and the nature of his disability? - please tell me if I am asking too much here.

Margaret :-[
All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only

ARCHIBALD/ADAMS/BROWN/GORDON/WILSON/Midlothian
CADDY/COPPIN/DIONYTHORNE/GEDYE/GIDDEY/GIDDY/GROWDEN/THOMAS/Cornwall
CAREY/France/Kent/NZ 
CARMICHAEL/GRAHAM/CRAMB/STEWART/Perth
CLOUGH/Lancs/Yorks/NSW
CORNWELL/Kent/NSW 
EATON/Lon/NSW    
MALYON/Mdx  
MATTHEWS/Lon/Sry/Oxf/Glouc/NSW
McLEOD/THOMSON/E Lothian
QUINN/Kilkenny
TUCK/HART/Mdx/Esx
VICCARS/ Lond/Northamps/Hunts
WATSON/Down


Offline Hillhurst

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 04:41 GMT (UK) »
Hi Margaret - no worries, happy to help. Sorry, the Pension card is just that. No DoB nor injury details. Compared to other WW1 Pension cards, his card has very little information. Basically what I included above. That's it, really.

According to the Silver War Badge record list, he enlisted on 20 Aug 1914. His age upon discharge (Dec 1917) was 24.

I checked Find My Past, to see if there were any non-Medal records for him. But no luck.

Hopefully the Fusiliers Museum hold details for his Military Medal citation, and can email them to you.

Are you trying to confirm if he was married and/or who his parents were?

Offline ALAMO2008

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 10:23 GMT (UK) »
Hi again Hillhurst,

No apologies needed regarding the address.

The Chelsea pensioner information is invaluable also.
Does the pension card have Thomas's date of birth by any chance?  and the nature of his disability? - please tell me if I am asking too much here.

Margaret :-[

Do you know where he was born ?
His Mother's Maiden Name?
Did he have any Brothers and Sisters?
What were their Names?
CHAPMAN ROBINSON McKAY O'MALLEY

Offline margaret1

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 18:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi again Hillhurst,

No apologies needed regarding the address.

The Chelsea pensioner information is invaluable also.
Does the pension card have Thomas's date of birth by any chance?  and the nature of his disability? - please tell me if I am asking too much here.

Margaret :-[

Do you know where he was born ?
His Mother's Maiden Name?
Did he have any Brothers and Sisters?
What were their Names?

Firstly I would like to thank everyone for their time spent helping me with this.

My surmise is that Thomas Barnes was an alias.

Thomas is a new family member (direct line) who has turned up through DNA matches thenceforth I have researched him quite thoroughly. He was born 24 Oct 1893 in Hindley Lancashire and died 20 Sept 1958 in Manchester. His father died in his twenties in a colliery accident just after his T's first birthday, his mother remarried and moved to Australia with her new husband and Thomas's sister. Thomas was possibly cared for by his paternal grandparents according to the 1901 census. Thomas served with the Lancashire Fusiliers in WW1 - I have a photo of him in his uniform - I have been told he was wounded in battle and "lost a leg". He married in 1920 in Bradford Christ Church Manchester. I have not been able to find any military records for him under his correct surname. A direct descendant of Thomas, who lives in the United States (who sent the photo) has on her Ancestry family tree only one military source for Thomas - the medal card index for Thomas Barnes, with no explanation. and I am waiting for a reply email from her to confirm my suspicion. When she repllies I will post his correct surname and all details - to do so now may cause confusion if my conjecture is incorrect.

It's such a pity that his service record didn't survive, as it would have contained all the details needed to confirm or refute it.

Margaret
All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only

ARCHIBALD/ADAMS/BROWN/GORDON/WILSON/Midlothian
CADDY/COPPIN/DIONYTHORNE/GEDYE/GIDDEY/GIDDY/GROWDEN/THOMAS/Cornwall
CAREY/France/Kent/NZ 
CARMICHAEL/GRAHAM/CRAMB/STEWART/Perth
CLOUGH/Lancs/Yorks/NSW
CORNWELL/Kent/NSW 
EATON/Lon/NSW    
MALYON/Mdx  
MATTHEWS/Lon/Sry/Oxf/Glouc/NSW
McLEOD/THOMSON/E Lothian
QUINN/Kilkenny
TUCK/HART/Mdx/Esx
VICCARS/ Lond/Northamps/Hunts
WATSON/Down

Offline Hillhurst

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 19:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi Margaret - so is Thomas Barnes the alias? If so, any particular reason for the alias, that you know of?

QUESTION: Can I just ask what T's address is at the time of his 1920 marriage? Are there any witness names who might be T's relative?

With the 27 Gibbon Street address (Pension Card) I'd suggest searching the Electoral Register for Manchester, but they weren't compiled in the years 1917, 1919 and 1940 to 1944. With 1918 it's available on microfilm at Manchester City Council.

It would be the same for Absent Voter Lists. Manchester City Council hold some lists for Manchester, 1918 to 1923 on microfilm at the Central library. They give information such as the regiment, regimental number, rank, battalion.

With his Pension card, it appears to be given for a 2 month period only -- unless I'm mistaken.

I'm beginning to wonder if your contact in the USA has selected another soldier's record?

By the way, this article will provide more details on how WW1 pensions were calculated:
https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/the-disabled-soldier-how-his-pension-was-calculated/

Offline margaret1

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Re: Help with Medal Rolls Index Card Thomas Barnes
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 28 December 21 21:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi Margaret - so is Thomas Barnes the alias? If so, any particular reason for the alias, that you know of?

QUESTION: Can I just ask what T's address is at the time of his 1920 marriage? Are there any witness names who might be T's relative?

With the 27 Gibbon Street address (Pension Card) I'd suggest searching the Electoral Register for Manchester, but they weren't compiled in the years 1917, 1919 and 1940 to 1944. With 1918 it's available on microfilm at Manchester City Council.

It would be the same for Absent Voter Lists. Manchester City Council hold some lists for Manchester, 1918 to 1923 on microfilm at the Central library. They give information such as the regiment, regimental number, rank, battalion.

With his Pension card, it appears to be given for a 2 month period only -- unless I'm mistaken.

I'm beginning to wonder if your contact in the USA has selected another soldier's record?

By the way, this article will provide more details on how WW1 pensions were calculated:
https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/the-disabled-soldier-how-his-pension-was-calculated/

Sorry for the confusion Hillhurst. Thomas Barnes is an alias name.

Thomas Watmough is his birth name. He married  Susannah Lloyd on 7th Aug 1920 at Christ Church Bradford Lancashire. His address was 18 James Street, Bradford Manchester, a bachelor, age 26, profession: Engine man. Witnesses were William Henry Lloyd, Susannah's brother and Phyllis Berry who was related to Thomas's paternal grandmother Elizabeth Ann Watmough nee Prescott through her 2nd marriage to Thomas Berry.  The marriage was registered in Prestwich Lancashire, about 6 miles from Bradford Manchester. His parents were Thomas Watmough b1869 Wigan Lancashire and Mary Ellen nee Mather b. 1868 Leigh Lancashire. Her 2nd marriage was to James Brown Hill.

Note that Gibbon Street and James Street Bradford Manchester are close to each other also in December 1917 Thomas Watmough had just turned 24 - the same age as Thomas Barnes.

In 1939  Thomas Watmough was living in Manchester with his wife and a son and working as an above ground Colliery Ventilating Fan Attendant.

After reading the information on how the pension was calculated it does seem strange that his pension was only given for two months, also I have no idea why he  chose to enlist using an alias name, if indeed he did -  I do hope my US contact emails me soon with some answers. In the meantime I'll check out the Electoral Register and Absent Voter Lists - if I can access them.

Thanks again for taking your time to share your knowledge with me.

Margaret


All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only

ARCHIBALD/ADAMS/BROWN/GORDON/WILSON/Midlothian
CADDY/COPPIN/DIONYTHORNE/GEDYE/GIDDEY/GIDDY/GROWDEN/THOMAS/Cornwall
CAREY/France/Kent/NZ 
CARMICHAEL/GRAHAM/CRAMB/STEWART/Perth
CLOUGH/Lancs/Yorks/NSW
CORNWELL/Kent/NSW 
EATON/Lon/NSW    
MALYON/Mdx  
MATTHEWS/Lon/Sry/Oxf/Glouc/NSW
McLEOD/THOMSON/E Lothian
QUINN/Kilkenny
TUCK/HART/Mdx/Esx
VICCARS/ Lond/Northamps/Hunts
WATSON/Down