Author Topic: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed  (Read 682 times)

Offline Murray1983

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Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« on: Wednesday 29 December 21 19:13 GMT (UK) »
Hello
I am french and trying to know more on my English roots. My grandfather was English. And I am looking to find more information on my gran grandfather(Sidney) and his father. I know Sidney date and place of birth. I have found birth certificate. But there is a mystery I am not able to sort out.

Sidney Murray born may 9th 1895 , 29 Kentish town road. Registration District PANCRAS , Sub District Camden Town.
 
The certificate state that her mother is Harriet Murrey formerly Hyde and his Father is Henry Murrey. What is strange to me is that Murrey is written with an “e” while on my gran grandfather papers and then all family member this is written with a “a” Murray.
According to the family history Sidney had sisters and when was young was placed in a family Voller as his father was traveler and Diamond merchant. I have found some traces in census of that placement.
 
I have found also birth certificates of ladies where date and mother are corresponding. Always Harriet Murray formerly Hyde. One with same residence.
 1 : Augusta Gertrude Murray (With a “a”) 4 June 1890, 29 Kentish town road. Registration District PANCRAS , Sub District Camden Town.
 

2: Eva : Where this is interesting as in this I found relevant information that is corresponding to the history we have always heard from the family . Meaning Father profession and name of the father Sigmun. Sigmun is well stated as Sidney Father’s name in some records Sidney ‘s wife wrote decades ago.
 

What I don’t reconcile and looking for help is the Sidney Father history. It’s seems he was jewish and that is why they change name. So Murray is perhaps not the real family name that could explain the mistake between “e” and “a” and why in a certificate there is no name , one henry or last with Sigmun . Sigmun being the name known in family history. So I am really interested to know more about that strange family history and trying to sort it out. I have not been able to find marriage certificate with an Harriet Hyde and a Sigmun or Henry Murray or Murrey. Maybe I am not looking at the right places (I looked at the GRO). I also don’t know if we can find some child placement information. Sidney being place in the Voller Familly. I even have some military letter stating this.  I know finally that Sigmun is supposed to dead in Singapour but I have unfortunately no date. And finally, it’s seems that Harriet had a last child Herbert but died while delivering.

I know this is a strange story but this is why I am interested in and whiling to know more on my English root that I am proud of.

By advance thanks for any help.



Offline aghadowey

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 29 December 21 22:55 GMT (UK) »
Spelling variations were quite common until recent times so I wouldn't worry about Murray/Murrey.

I did find Sidney Murray with Vollmer family in 1901 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9ZV-6FJ?count=20&q.anyPlace=london&q.givenName=sidney&q.surname=murray&c.birthLikeDate1=on&f.birthLikeDate0=1800&f.birthLikeDate1=1800~1890
There's no way to tell from that record for one particular night how long Sidney was in the Voller household. It may have been for a short while or many years. Most arrangements were informal with no paperwork to find.

I possibly found mother Harriet Murray and daughter Gertrude in 1891 census-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:35KF-2W2?count=20&q.anyPlace=saint%20pancras%2C%20london&q.anyPlace.exact=on&q.givenName=harriett&q.surname=murray&f.collectionId=1865747
The actual record will show more details such as Harriet's marital status (single, widowed, divorced).
However, I also found a possible birth for Augusta Gertrude Murray (1890  S Quarter in PANCRAS  Volume 01B  Page 98) but GRO index does not list mother's maiden name so perhaps she was illegitimate. If that's the case it could explain why you haven't found a marriage.

You mentioned a daughter Eva & this could be her (1891  J Quarter in PANCRAS  Volume 01B  Page 22)- mother's maiden name Hyde.

Also found possible birth for Herbert Murray (1898  S Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 577) but didn't see mother's death around that time. Do you know what happened to Herbert? If mother died around time of his birth and children were split up he may have been looked after by relatives.

Now for Sidney's mysterious father.
"Sigmun is well stated as Sidney Father’s name in some records Sidney ‘s wife wrote decades ago."
Is Sigmun supposed to be first or last name?

"Father was traveler and Diamond merchant" according to family stories yet Sidney's birth registration says "carpenter journeyman." "Sigmun is supposed to dead in Singapour" is strange also.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 29 December 21 23:09 GMT (UK) »
Wish I'd found this earlier before searching for the above details  :-\
Someone else researching the Murray family?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804845.0

Added-
Is earlier original poster of thread also you?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=805541.msg6641423#msg6641423
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!


Offline Neale1961

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 29 December 21 23:22 GMT (UK) »
Wish I'd found this earlier before searching for the above details  :-\
Someone else researching the Murray family?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804845.0
Yes I wished I had found that earlier too. Good find aghadowey. I just spent quite a few hours working through it all, and came up with the same information as that earlier thread.

Welcome to RootsChat, Murray1893. :) If you have any problems following the other old thread, please come back and ask for help.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 30 December 21 02:39 GMT (UK) »
A bit more clarity on the MURRAY family:

Robert MURRAY (occupation servant) married 14 June 1840 at All Souls, Marylebone to Lucy SPRINGTHORP (1812-1875)
Robert was born about 1816 Scotland - His father John MURRAY a carpenter.
Lucy was born in Reading Berkshire. Her father John SPRINGTHORP a servant.

(The Murray family are living in St George Hanover square in census records.)

Son of Robert and Lucy:
Robert David Murray born 11 Apr 1843 Pimlico Middlesex 
Robert David MURRAY/McMURRAY (occupation carpenter) married at St George Hanover Square to Harriet HYDE
Her father was Charles John HYDE (occupation plumber). Harriett died in 1884 and Robert married a second time in 1889 to Louisa BENHAM

Daughter of Robert David MURRAY and Harriett HYDE
Harriet Emily MURRAY born 1869 Wandsworth, who is the mother of Sidney MURRAY born 1895.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 30 December 21 06:57 GMT (UK) »
I have found a possible for the mysterious father named “Sigmun”
Siegmund Marcus LÖWENSTEIN born 17 April 1860 Frankfurt, Germany
Parents Marcus LÖWENSTEIN and Sophie SCHWARZCHILD – married 2 July 1851 in Frankfurt

In 1891 census Siegmund, age 30, is living in St George Hanover Square with his brothers. All are single and all are born Frankfurt but naturalised British subjects. The oldest brother Lazare LÖWENSTEIN is working as a merchant in precious stones and pearls. Siegmund and his brother Ferdinand are working as stockbrokers / agents. Is it possible that Harriet Murray worked as a domestic servant for the family?
(The address at St George Hanover square is significant because this is where the Murray family where living – I think the Murray grandfather must have been employed as a servant in a wealthy home in that area.)

Siegmund’s naturalisation certificate of April 1884 describes him as a merchant. Address 35 Bloomsbury Square, Middlesex.

In 1886 Siegmund was admitted membership to the London Stock Exchange.

In the 1890 Post office directory the LÖWENSTEIN family are recorded as precious stone merchants, abode at Albermarle St Piccadilly.

In 1901 census, Siegmund age 40, is still single living in St George Hanover Square with a number of servants. His occupation is pearl merchant. (There is something else written beside occupation which has been crossed out and not possible to read.)

In 1911 census, Siegmund is still single, age 50, boarding at an address in Park Lane, occupation - private means.

Siegmund died 25 Dec 1923 at Belsize Park, Hampstead.

Descriptions of the unknown Sigmun’s occupation, fit with the above man :
“Mercantile traveller – jeweller” is the description on Eva Murrays birth record 1891
“Diamond merchant” - description on Harriet Murrays death 1902
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 30 December 21 11:01 GMT (UK) »
Following on with the possible father-
1924. LOWENSTEIN Siegmund Marcus of 23 Down-street Piccadilly Middlesex died 25 December 1923 at 45 Belsize Park Hampstead Middlesex Probate London 19 February to Alfred Augustus Gingell accountant. Effects £4633 3s. 2d.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=lowenstein&yearOfDeath=1924&page=1#calendar

Partnership dissolved 1902-
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27544/page/2486/data.pdf
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline joger

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 30 December 21 16:37 GMT (UK) »
Hello Murray1983,
 welcome on Rootschat.
I presume you are the person I helped on geneanet , see the fomowing lingk if you aren't.
(https://www.geneanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=607793).

Offline Murray1983

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Re: Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed
« Reply #8 on: Friday 31 December 21 08:57 GMT (UK) »
 Hello dear all  :)

@ Joger , yes you are right I didn't know you had so many connections already in a UK Forum. This is just wonderfull. As Yvette the last daughter of Sidney is getting older and older and she is desperate to find her Gran father history I decided to give it another try directly on this UK forum and I would love for her to find more explanation.  ;)

I just got from my mum a handwriten notebook that Sidney's wife wrote. This is the family story that has been writen like a novel explaining almost what you have in the different thread with different names (not helping :-) ) But this is more focusing on Sidney's childhood at Voller 's place.

What I read in this book is that indeed the Sigmun Familly and especilally her Mother . But there is no name was not happy with the situation between His son being Jewish and Harriet Catholic. It seems that Sidney visited still its gran mother in a quite big house (Again no adress ) but I guess not so far from the place he used to live with the Voller Familly as this is not stating long trip to visit her. I have not yet finish the notebook. But any relevant information that could help , I ll let you know.

Know regarding the LOWENSTEIN Siegmund story. I found it very exciting as this is looking as a serious option. Only point from what I read but need to reconfirm is that the story is stating sister of sigmund but no brother. Just maybe that at that time men were focusing on work not being there so much and women more taking care of the familly stuff :-).

Again thanks a lot for all these knew informations regarding Sidney 's Father. The Harriet branch was indeed already well advanced thanks to Joger already at that time.  :) :) :)

2021 is finishing well and hope 2022 will be even better in term of findings. I will connect with Sidney's daughter regarding the LOWENSTEIN Siegmund to see if this is triggering some souvenir to her.