Author Topic: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection  (Read 592 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 20:10 GMT (UK) »
Regarding your question about Anne/Agnes in connection with baptism of Ages Robertson 1835 in your opening post. The 2 names weren't interchangeable among my Lancashire ancestors. Common variants of Ann in Lancashire were Annie and Nanny. All my English ancestors lived in Lancashire, many traceable to 1600s. Several in one line named Agnes 1600s-early 20thC. None were ever Ann. There were many women named Agnes in their district; I haven't noticed any being known as Ann. My 4xGGM Agnes had a younger sister Ann and 2 daughters, Ann and Agnes.
 
Btw your introductory sentence to baptism of Agnes Robertson is "I think I've found what is Mary's baptism". 
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 21:44 GMT (UK) »
List of Mary Helm/e baptisms reply #4.
Mary Elisabeth baptised March 1807, Padiham, parents Elijah & Mary may have died aged 12. Burial Sep. 1819.
Some dates in the list were dates of birth, some dates of baptism.
Mary baptised at Higham, near Padiham Feb. 1818. Was this at Higham Wesleyan/Independent Chapel, parents James & Esther? They had other children baptised at the chapel. Higham was part of Haworth Methodist Circuit prior to the chapel's foundation. Haworth is in Yorkshire.

Added. Baptism Nov. 1816 Cockerham. May have died 1828 aged 11. Buried at Ellel. Also recorded in burial register St. Michael, Cockerham.
Information from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks. Website also has information about many churches and places.   www.lan-opc.org.uk
Cowban

Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 05 January 22 23:26 GMT (UK) »

1851 France
Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert 11
Joseph Robert 3


Could this be Jean in 1861, London
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5j/

Also 1861
Possibly Mother Marie a widow at 10 Chandos St, Strand
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5k/
Same occupation as in later census

Yes and Yes!
I know that Jean was born in France from the 1851 Lyon census. It says that his place of birth was "Lyon, France" on this 1861 English census form.
In the 1871 English census where mother Marie is living with her daughter in Islington, her occupation is given as "nurse" as well (as it is here). I'm pretty sure it's the same woman, the age roughly matches as well.

great detective work Rosie!


Quote
So, after I found the reference to Lyon in the immigration records, I began looking at the Rhône census records for surname "Robert" and found the following from the 1851 census:

Name:Marie Robert
Maiden Name: Helm
Gender:femme (Female)
Nationality:Anglaise
Marital Status:Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age:36
Birth Date:abt 1815
Residence Date:1851
Street Address:Rue de Landine
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Journalier (Day Laborer/Journeyman)
Relationship:
Épouse (Wife)

Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier (Anglais)
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife) (Anglaise)
Eliza Robert 17 (Anglaise)
Jean Robert 11 (Français)
Joseph Robert 3 (Français)

This would appear to be Anne/Anna's family still living there in 1851. I went through all the Robert's in Rhône on the census forms and this was the only one that was described as "Anglaise".
The only thing that was wrong was that the dates of birth didn't match the ones on the English census forms for Marie (Mary) and Eliza. Most French women appeared to use the name 'Elise' or 'Elisabeth' and "Eliza" was far less common, I found when looking through the records. So again, I thought this pointed to the correct family. However, Anne had already departed by this stage.

just looked at the original census form from Lyon for 1851 and found that Jean snr's occupation is actually listed as "porcelainier", not 'journalier'; can't read his wife's occupation though, we know she turns up later in the English census as occupation "nurse". Also note they list Marie's maiden name as Helm. You will see that Eliza's nationality is also "Anglaise", however the two younger sons are French born as there is no nationality recorded. Anne had departed by this stage.


Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 06 January 22 00:02 GMT (UK) »
Regarding your question about Anne/Agnes in connection with baptism of Ages Robertson 1835 in your opening post. The 2 names weren't interchangeable among my Lancashire ancestors. Common variants of Ann in Lancashire were Annie and Nanny. All my English ancestors lived in Lancashire, many traceable to 1600s. Several in one line named Agnes 1600s-early 20thC. None were ever Ann. There were many women named Agnes in their district; I haven't noticed any being known as Ann. My 4xGGM Agnes had a younger sister Ann and 2 daughters, Ann and Agnes.
 
Btw your introductory sentence to baptism of Agnes Robertson is "I think I've found what is Mary's baptism".

Thankyou, noted. I have also changed the errror you spotted, thankyou. There is also an Anne Robert in the 1836 Lyon census with parents Jean & Marie, aged 2, see below.

Barry

Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 06 January 22 01:19 GMT (UK) »
The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection


in the 1856 Rhône census I found the younger son again 5 years later:
Name: Jean Joseph Robert
Gender: homme (Male)
Marital Status: Garçon
Age: 8
Birth Date: abt 1848
Residence Date: 1856
Residence Place: Oullins, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Fobricant de Porcelainier (Porcelain maker)


Could you please give the details of all in the household for that 1856 entry.
....

Who was Alexander Robert, the godfather to Adolphus



Quote
Could you please give the details of all in the household for that 1856 entry.

It's strange, as the census entry gives a long list of children, all unrelated with different surnames. No other members of the Robert family appear as living in the suburb of Oullins, Lyon that year. Perhaps they were all in a children's home or else the French had a different way of gathering census data that year. The children range from ages 5-19 and all have different occupations, with a majority being between the ages of 7 and 9. I can't seem to find the rest of the Robert family in Lyon for 1856. Maybe they had to put him in a children's home?


Quote
Who was Alexander Robert, the godfather to Adolphus

Where did you find this reference, Rosie? I am not aware of it


There is also another reference which I found in the Lyon census in 1836, which may be Anne and her parents:
Name: Marie Robert (mother)
Gender: femme (Female)
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age: 20
Birth Date: abt 1816
Residence Date: 1836
Street Address: Rue de Marbresa
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France

Jn Louis Robert 32 (occupation: 'Guimpier' - 'Tireur d'or fabricant le fil d'or utilise ensuite par le Fileur d'or') ~ birth year 1804
Marie Robert 20 (Fe) ~ birth year 1816
Anne Robert 2 ~ birth year 1834
It does not give a place of birth for Anne however.

The only death in Lyon for a "Jean Robert" between 1851 & 1861 was on 18 Sep 1861 ( I assume this was afte the English census was taken?) and although the age is more or less correct, the relatives do not seem to be correct. This would perhaps point to the fact he died elsewhere in France or maybe in England? We know that in 1861 Mary is in London, working as a nurse and living as a widow, thanks to Rosie's discovery.

Name: Jean Pierre Robert
Gender: homme (Male)
Death Age: 56
Record Type: Décès (Death)
Birth Date: abt 1805
Death Date: 18 sept. 1861 (18 Sep 1861)
Death Place: Vénissieux, Rhône, France
Father: Jean Baptiste Robert
Mother: Marie Servos
Spouse: Marie Bourgey

There is also an entry in the England, Alien Arrivals, 1810-1811, 1826-1869 section of ancestry:
Name: Anne Roberts
Port of Arrival: Brighton, England
Arrival Date: 26 Sep 1839
Port of Departure: Dieppe, France
Ship: Belfast
Country of Origin/Native of: France

However I doubt it's her as she would have been about 5 years old at the time and she is not recorded as arriving with another "Roberts", she appears to be arriving with a Madame Guieriole, both of them listed as being from Paris. There are also so many other people with the surname Roberts listed, without a first name recorded, who arrived either from Dieppe or Calais around this time, up until Anne married in London in 1853. It's hard to know if this is her, however I doubt it. She is the only "Anne Roberts" that comes up arriving from France 1843 +/- 10 years

Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 06 January 22 02:07 GMT (UK) »
although baptised Ribchester - they lived in DUTTON = 13 miles from Preston

Baptism: 27 Mar 1814 St Wilfrid, Ribchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Helme - [Child] of Elizabeth Helme
    Abode: Dutton
    Occupation: Weaver
    Baptised by: H Cardwell

There is a Mary (English spelling, not 'Marie') Robert in the 1866 Lyon census, occupation: WEAVER; however we know that she was in the 1861 & 1871 censuses in London, occupation :"nurse". The Mary below is also slightly older

Name:Mary Robert
Gender:femme (Female)
Marital Status:Veuve (Widow)
Age:60
Birth Date:abt 1806
Residence Date:1866
Street Address:Rue St Georges
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Tisseur (weaver)

Mary Robert 60
Marie Paquet 21
Jenny Joubert 18

Offline baz201

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 06 January 22 02:20 GMT (UK) »
List of Mary Helm/e baptisms reply #4.
Mary Elisabeth baptised March 1807, Padiham, parents Elijah & Mary may have died aged 12. Burial Sep. 1819.
Some dates in the list were dates of birth, some dates of baptism.
Mary baptised at Higham, near Padiham Feb. 1818. Was this at Higham Wesleyan/Independent Chapel, parents James & Esther? They had other children baptised at the chapel. Higham was part of Haworth Methodist Circuit prior to the chapel's foundation. Haworth is in Yorkshire.

Added. Baptism Nov. 1816 Cockerham. May have died 1828 aged 11. Buried at Ellel. Also recorded in burial register St. Michael, Cockerham.
Information from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks. Website also has information about many churches and places.   www.lan-opc.org.uk

Quote
Mary baptised at Higham, near Padiham Feb. 1818. Was this at Higham Wesleyan/Independent Chapel, parents James & Esther?
yes, correct.

Thankyou for the other information

Offline rosie99

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 06 January 22 08:15 GMT (UK) »
Alexander Robert was mentioned as one of the godparents of Adolphus, the image is on FindMyPast.

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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Roberts/Robertson and the French connection
« Reply #17 on: Friday 07 January 22 01:54 GMT (UK) »
Reply #14. Weaving was one of the commonest occupations in Lancashire. It was still mainly a cottage industry when that Mary Helm was baptised in Ribchester in 1814. Rows of weavers' cottages had been built at the turn of the century in a village in the parish + more cottages with attached workshops for nailers who made special nails for the weaving looms. One set of my ancestors moved to the village to build houses, another set arrived to make nails.
Factories gradually took over textile production and were a major employer of women in Lancashire.
Cowban