Author Topic: False Coat of Arms on Tomb  (Read 2278 times)

Offline Canuk

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False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« on: Friday 07 January 22 18:47 GMT (UK) »
Is anybody out there scholar in English Ecclesiastical History from medieval times to 17th century? I have asked this question and it either goes off topic, or people just guess at the answer. You lot are pretty sharp so I am hoping somebody will know.

I have a knight who died in 1618. A respected genealogy and antiquarian book published about 1907 said that he had a tomb and effigy in a chapel in a certain church. I found it, still there in the church. Later research (not by me. This comes from the church.) found a masons mark on the tomb. This mason died at least 100 years previous to my knight. Research also showed that the original knight's coat of arms had been removed and replaced with my guy's. Research also showed that the chapel was a Chantry for the previous knight before the Reformation. So my question is this. Was it common practice in that era to do what my knight did? I was kind of shocked, but then it was a different time.
EVE, CARTER, HADLOW, BONES, all between Faversham and Canterbury, Kent, England

Online KGarrad

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #1 on: Friday 07 January 22 20:04 GMT (UK) »
Were the 2 men linked by family ties?
Coats-of-Arms are normally passed down through the male line.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline mckha489

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #2 on: Friday 07 January 22 20:12 GMT (UK) »
I am sorry this is not going to be precise. But,

I am part of a transcription project, and I know I have transcribed a record that noted a brass on a tomb had been removed, turned over and re-engraved for a new occupant.  I cannot remember now if they were related, but my feeling is they were not. Just that the new occupant was either perceived to be or thought he was more important than the first.

Online Rena

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #3 on: Friday 07 January 22 21:13 GMT (UK) »
So my question is this. Was it common practice in that era to do what my knight did? I was kind of shocked, but then it was a different time.

I've been following the members of Kirk Michael's Trust (of the Black Isle, R&C) on Facebook, as they have laboured to restore the church and the headstones.  There are several ancient headstones, some of which have sunk beneath the surface thus had to be dug up, cleaned, translated and then returned to original position in full sight of church goers.

  The volunteers doing this work have checked the church/kirk records of every headstone they have worked on and it has been evident that some old headstones have actually been RE-USED.

https://www.facebook.com/kirkmichaeltrust

https://www.kirkmichael.info/

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Offline Canuk

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #4 on: Friday 07 January 22 21:54 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the quick replies. First, to Rena: This was a knight's tomb inside the church, complete with an effigy. It was not a gravestone outdoors, but thanks for the informative website. It will come in useful for some other family members.
KGarrad: No, these two people were not connected in any way.
Mckha489: That is very helpful indeed. It is the first time I have found a similar circumstance.
I am concentrating on taking a deep dive into this three generations of family because they are worth of TV mini-series. They were highly influential and very split, vocal, troublesome and public about their religious, financial and political differences in a time when this could have grave consequences.
EVE, CARTER, HADLOW, BONES, all between Faversham and Canterbury, Kent, England

Offline Ian Nelson

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 08 January 22 00:53 GMT (UK) »
Was this church by any chance in the vicinity of Kirkby Fleetham, North Yorkshire ?   60 years ago I was shown a knight's tomb with effigy inside a church by my recently deceased uncle, John Tubby, a local councillor for that area and a bit of a local history buff.   There was an intriguing story to the tomb but I cannot remember what it was.
It was near an estate owned by Colonel Courage of the beer-brewing family.
Norfolk, Nelsons of Gt Ryburgh, Gooch, Howman, COLLISONS,  Ainger, Couzens, Batrick (Norfolk & Dorset), Tubby ( also of Yorkshire) Cathcarts of Ireland, Lancashire & Isle of Wight) Dickinsons of Morecambe and Lancaster, Wilson of Poulton-le-Sands and Broughton.  Wilson - Ffrance of Rawcliffe,  Mitchells of Isle of Wight. Hair of Ayrshire, Williamson of Tradeston, Glasgow. Nelsons in Australia with Haywards Heath connections.

Offline Ian Nelson

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 08 January 22 01:20 GMT (UK) »
on checking my notes it seems it was the church of St. Mary's at Kirkby Fleetham.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol1/pp320-323

The new work is mainly in the 14thcentury style. In the south wall of the chancel is a modern recessed ogee-headed tomb containing a 13th-century effigy of a knight in complete mail with leather knee pieces and a cap of mail, round which is a leather band; over all is a long surcoat fastened at the waist by a sword-belt, to which the sword is attached by interlaced leather work; the hands are in the attitude of prayer and the legs crossed. The figure probably represents the eldest son of the Sir Nicholas Stapleton who died in 1290, (fn. 64) the shield on his left arm being charged with a lion and a label of five points.
Norfolk, Nelsons of Gt Ryburgh, Gooch, Howman, COLLISONS,  Ainger, Couzens, Batrick (Norfolk & Dorset), Tubby ( also of Yorkshire) Cathcarts of Ireland, Lancashire & Isle of Wight) Dickinsons of Morecambe and Lancaster, Wilson of Poulton-le-Sands and Broughton.  Wilson - Ffrance of Rawcliffe,  Mitchells of Isle of Wight. Hair of Ayrshire, Williamson of Tradeston, Glasgow. Nelsons in Australia with Haywards Heath connections.

Offline Canuk

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 08 January 22 02:22 GMT (UK) »
Fascinating story! My guy is not in Yorkshire, but not far off -- County Durham.
EVE, CARTER, HADLOW, BONES, all between Faversham and Canterbury, Kent, England

Offline Ian Nelson

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Re: False Coat of Arms on Tomb
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 08 January 22 10:07 GMT (UK) »
I remember more now and the Knights Templar were the owners of the land thereabouts but after the excommunication of them in 1312 the lands all changed owners and occupiers frequently so different owners might appropriate the buildings for their own purposes.  Some of the owners in the feudal system were the Lords of Kendal, Duke of Lancaster and Earl of Sunderland and lesser mortals to whom they leased or sold the 'manors' so if you check the British History link in my previous post you might find some connections.
Are you free to post the name of the church ?  Rootschatters have a number of specially talented Historians happy to delve into medieval mysteries.
cheers, Ian
Just a foot note to that, Scotland was a haven for Continental Knights Templars as King Robert the Bruce had been excommunicated for murdering the Red Comyn in a church so had no requirement to obey Papal Bulls.   Loch Awe islands and Kilmartin have many unexplained burials and gravestones of knightly figures who had no apparent connection to the locality.
Norfolk, Nelsons of Gt Ryburgh, Gooch, Howman, COLLISONS,  Ainger, Couzens, Batrick (Norfolk & Dorset), Tubby ( also of Yorkshire) Cathcarts of Ireland, Lancashire & Isle of Wight) Dickinsons of Morecambe and Lancaster, Wilson of Poulton-le-Sands and Broughton.  Wilson - Ffrance of Rawcliffe,  Mitchells of Isle of Wight. Hair of Ayrshire, Williamson of Tradeston, Glasgow. Nelsons in Australia with Haywards Heath connections.