Missing family on ionic ship 1897

[Neale1961]

I’ve been looking at the Charles Forrest in the 1930 census living with Owen in Philadelphia as his son. He was apparently born in Perth and had a Spanish mother. Seems quite odd. He was born the same year as Robert Gordon in NZ. Anyone found out about this person?

I think, the 1930 census says Charles was born in Pennsylvania. I spent some time yesterday and again today trying to work out who he is. I got nowhere. Born the same year as Robert Owen Gordon who was in January 1909. It is possible, but he may have been born while the family were in transit from one country to another. And maybe this is why they do not appear in the 1910 census in USA. Did one have to enter the USA through Canada?
Why was Charles not with his father in the 1920 census? Where was he? With his mother? - and there is another unsolved question. I have not found what happened to her. No sign of her in the census, or another marriage, or of her death.

[Neale1961]

Have I missed something. I thought JE was an accountant. Is this the same person who is a solicitor when his son dies?

South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1929
Occupation:   Fellow London Society of Accountants; Sole Expert in Handwriting in South Africa
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby.

South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Date:   14 Mar 1858
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1916
Occupation:   Expert in Handwriting, Bookkeeping and Accounts
Notes:   Other: Fellow London Society of Accountants; Certificate of Transvaal Society of Accountants, 1911; Educated: Kingston-on-Thames. Joined London and County Bank, 1878, served nineteen years; all posts short of Manager. In Law Classes, King's College, gained "Hono ....

I think John’s changing occupations are just as fanciful as a lot of other things about that man.
In England before his name change, he was simply a bank cashier. In 1908 and 1909 travelling he has no occupation recorded and is travelling third class on each voyage – implies not at all wealthy. Then he seems to have been an accountant, and a journalist, and a solicitor, and a hand-writing expert to the supreme court.
When he died the probate index lists his effects at 209 English pounds.

[Neale1961]

South Africa, Maitland Cemetery

Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Gender:   Male
Race:   European
Age:   83
Occupation:   Retired Accountant
Birth Date:   abt 1861
Residence Place:   4 Stephen St Cape Town
Death Date:   15 Jul 1944
Burial or Cremation Date:   16 Jul 1944
Burial or Cremation Place:   Cape Town, South Africa
Burial Register:   Maitland Crematorium Internment Records
Where Death Registered:   Cape Province
How Remains Disposed:   Removed by Hoogendoorn Ltd 27 July 1944

John Edmund Forrest - London Gazette:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36875/page/201/data.pdf

[majm]

Have I missed something. I thought JE was an accountant. Is this the same person who is a solicitor when his son dies?

South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1929
Occupation:   Fellow London Society of Accountants; Sole Expert in Handwriting in South Africa
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby.

South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Date:   14 Mar 1858
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1916
Occupation:   Expert in Handwriting, Bookkeeping and Accounts
Notes:   Other: Fellow London Society of Accountants; Certificate of Transvaal Society of Accountants, 1911; Educated: Kingston-on-Thames. Joined London and County Bank, 1878, served nineteen years; all posts short of Manager. In Law Classes, King's College, gained "Hono ....

I think John’s changing occupations are just as fanciful as a lot of other things about that man.
In England before his name change, he was simply a bank cashier. In 1908 and 1909 travelling he has no occupation recorded and is travelling third class on each voyage – implies not at all wealthy. Then he seems to have been an accountant, and a journalist, and a solicitor, and a hand-writing expert to the supreme court.
When he died the probate index lists his effects at 209 English pounds.

I do not think that John Edmund was a imposter at all.  I think the newspaper assumed that anyone associated with the Supreme Court would be a solicitor.    I see a bank cashier could easily be considered as an accountant and I am absolutely sure a bank cashier would have plenty of hand writing expertise.  After all this was late 1800s and early 1900s.   The typewriter was not an everyday piece of equipment, cheques, bank drafts, letters of credit, wills, powers of attorney, affidavits, were all written by hand and often required wax seals.    What was an accountant in 1900 -  what did he need to know - what formal qualifications would he had obtained - where would he have been trained.  Similarly a Journalist   - we need to put context here.    A man may have been deserted and it is quite possible that instead of turning his children over to an orphanage he has chosen to raise them himself.  And to do so away from any of his former wife's family.   Is it possible he was a battered husband?

JM Edited to overcome some very poor grammar.

[sparrett]

 
South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1929
Occupation:   Fellow London Society of Accountants; Sole Expert in Handwriting in South Africa
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby.

 

About one Lionel FORREST. Deceased 1915
This item tells that the deceased man was a student of Nelson Illingworth and son of a distinguished expert in handwriting

EDIT Sir Lionel FORREST

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19150917.2.20?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=lionel+forrest&snippet=true
                        
It has been noted that one Lionel FORREST lived at 35 Nairn Street Wellington in 1908 (#Reply 195, pg 22)  and there was discussion as to whether or not the Benjamin Collingwood FORREST living opposite at 40 Nairn Street was a relative.

The electoral Roll shows that also living at 35 Nairn St was Nelson Illingworth who was a sculptor of some renown.
A bio of Illingworth
https://www.portrait.gov.au/people/nelson-illingworth-1862
Another on page 11

https://australiana.org.au/resources/magazine_issues/21_January_1984_No_1.pdf

EDIT. I have added the name of the handwriting expert mentioned in the news item

[majm]

...
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby....

Trove says RMS IONIC was due to Hobart 2 March 1898, so twas not the Ionic that brought the FORREST family to South Africa ! https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39659999 Launceston Examiner, 1 March 1898. 

My geography re South Africa is dismal !  But Queen Victoria was Queen over South Africa too.  So was there a locality in South Africa known as Victoria ?   That may explain why Mrs Edith Kate Smith alerted the police in Victoria (Australia) looking for her husband and children. 

JM 

[sparrett]

Oh,
I understood the whole confusing thing to be that  he arrived per Ionic to Hobart in May 1897.

The following March 1898 according to this biographical information from Neale, he arrive South Africa.
 
Sue

[Neale1961]

Yes, the March 1898 arrival puzzled me too. (Intending to look further when I have some time.)
Yes I agree the newspapers have some responsibility in the solicitor business, but I wonder if that had been at the encouragement of some invention by his sons in NZ.
One wonders how much work there was for a hand-writing expert in court.

My imagination is running riot with the living arrangements between young Lionel and his sculpture teacher Illingworth. I will say no more……

Edited to correct date.

[sparrett]

 

Yes, the March 1989 arrival puzzled me too. (Intending to look further when I have some time.)
Yes I agree the newspapers have some responsibility in the solicitor business, but I wonder if that had been at the encouragement of some invention by his sons in NZ.
One wonders how much work there was for a hand-writing expert in court.

And other things! For instance father is-

Sir Lionel FORREST

Sue