Author Topic: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland  (Read 555 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #81 on: Friday 14 January 22 18:50 GMT (UK) »

I found the following on ancestry re the winding up of Michael McCaull's affairs re the school. There was no date attributed to it

The record seems to be from Griffiths' Valuation House Books. Valuations of land and buildings in every county of Ireland were carried out in mid-19thC. under direction of Richard Griffiths. The work continued over decades.
 Explanations, search tips and help in understanding them on these websites:
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article/valuation-office-records/
https://www.nli.ie/en/griffiths-valuation.aspx
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valution  This is the site to search for free.
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com  Several pages of information in "Land & property" topic under Genealogy tab.
Article "Griffiths' Valuation Books - the valuers' research notebooks" on Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/valuation-books.html
https://timeline.ie/griffiths-valuation-house-books/
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #82 on: Friday 14 January 22 20:17 GMT (UK) »
Edge was chopped off image in reply #80. Ends of words in Observations column were missing.
I looked it up on the National Archives website to read a better image. I've made a transcription of writing.
Valuation year was 1849 according to index of names on NA site. County Dublin valuation was first county to be completed.

https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article/valuation-office-records/


   Reps of the late Mich McCaull                                                   Observations
   House                                                                              Mr Moriarty Landlord
   Do. Bast.                                                                          as informed Mr M says
   House                                                                               £150 Perhaps he includes
   Do. Bast.                                                                          Taxes This premises was   
   School Dorm                                                                     occupied as a school which
                                                                                          has been broken up & is now
                                                                                           to be let. £160 has been                                           
                                                                                           offer'd for the interest in                                         
                                                                                            in the premises. There is an 
  Do.Porch                                                                               unexpired lease of 52 yrs
School Addn.
Offices
Office Stable
Office
Office
Office
Office

Abbreviations: Do =Ditto; Bast is presumably basement; Addn. Addition
The word office on Griffiths' Valuation was a generic term which included outbuildings such as stable, barn, workshop &c.

The property before it on York St. was occupied by a Mr Farrell.
Notes in Observation column:
"Mr Farrell purchased. I have since been informed that the rent is only £35. I think that this Ho is worth £38. I have since ascertained that Mr F paid £100 ....... made improvements ... Mr Moriarty is landlord.
 
There was a Doctor Ferrell in George St. Upper, Dunleary (Dunleary townland, Monkstown parish, valuation 1846)
Cowban

Offline baz201

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #83 on: Saturday 15 January 22 01:11 GMT (UK) »
Edge was chopped off image in reply #80. Ends of words in Observations column were missing.
I looked it up on the National Archives website to read a better image. I've made a transcription of writing.
Valuation year was 1849 according to index of names on NA site. County Dublin valuation was first county to be completed.

https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article/valuation-office-records/


   Reps of the late Mich McCaull                                                   Observations
   House                                                                              Mr Moriarty Landlord
   Do. Bast.                                                                          as informed Mr M says
   House                                                                               £150 Perhaps he includes
   Do. Bast.                                                                          Taxes This premises was   
   School Dorm                                                                     occupied as a school which
                                                                                          has been broken up & is now
                                                                                           to be let. £160 has been                                           
                                                                                           offer'd for the interest in                                         
                                                                                            in the premises. There is an 
  Do.Porch                                                                               unexpired lease of 52 yrs
School Addn.
Offices
Office Stable
Office
Office
Office
Office

Abbreviations: Do =Ditto; Bast is presumably basement; Addn. Addition
The word office on Griffiths' Valuation was a generic term which included outbuildings such as stable, barn, workshop &c.

The property before it on York St. was occupied by a Mr Farrell.
Notes in Observation column:
"Mr Farrell purchased. I have since been informed that the rent is only £35. I think that this Ho is worth £38. I have since ascertained that Mr F paid £100 ....... made improvements ... Mr Moriarty is landlord.
 
There was a Doctor Ferrell in George St. Upper, Dunleary (Dunleary townland, Monkstown parish, valuation 1846)

Thanks MaidenStone for deciphering the text,

Interesting to see the other person mentioned on the page is a Mr Farrell/Ferrall, given the relationship between the McCaull & Ferrall families. Maybe there is a connection? Landlord, Mr Moriarty must have been quite a wealthy person.

Can you see a date anywhere on the document? I don't seem to be able locate one


Offline shanreagh

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #84 on: Saturday 15 January 22 02:25 GMT (UK) »
I think it was 1849. Maidenstone says it was the earliest of these. 

Offline baz201

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #85 on: Saturday 15 January 22 06:16 GMT (UK) »
I think it was 1849. Maidenstone says it was the earliest of these.

Thanks Shanreagh

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #86 on: Saturday 15 January 22 07:37 GMT (UK) »
Regarding dates of the Griffiths' Valuation documents, I've looked at them again and they were various dates.

The image posted in reply 80 has years 1824-1856 on it. Is this from Ancestry or another website?

First the country had to have accurate maps. Detailed mapping of Ireland began in 1820s, the first entire country in the world to be surveyed in detail. Work was done by Royal Engineers regt. That's why they were called Ordnance Survey maps.
Next was assessment for tithes and their collection (and quelling opposition to their collection - more work for soldiers & police). Tithe Applotment Books compiled in 1820s & 1830s, also in National Archives Ireland, free to search.
Then a survey & valuation of land, houses & other buildings in every county in Ireland, beginning with County Dublin. This took a couple of decades. The final completed work was known as Griffiths' Valuation.

I've found 3 records in Griffiths' Valuation for the property Wellington Lodge in Dunleary.
They are all House Books but 2 contain mainly information about land.
1845 December Wellington Lodge, Kingstown School, Reps. of late Mich McCaul. Note says "This lot should come after Robert Farrell's on foregoing pages. Built a schoolhouse & offices. Lease rent £140."
1847 lot 54 Reps of late Mich McCaul Wellington Lodge. House, offices & garden, School House. Property on opposite page is Mary Villa, Robert J. Farrell.
1849 was the one found by Baz reply #80 which lists each building. I couldn't find it by searching for McCaul or variants I tried. Got it by looking for Robert Farrell (or was he Ferrell) + County Dublin + Dunleary townland. Robert was under Monkstown parish in 1847 book and Dalkey parish in 1849 book. Robert's address was Mary Villa in 1847 and York St. in 1849. He was next door to Wellington House all the time so he hadn't moved, the parish boundary may have altered or the surveyor made a mistake.

census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/home.jsp

The image in reply #80 was complete when I looked at it second time, no letters missing from edge this time.

I was looking for something else in Chief Secretary's Office Registered Papers and noticed a letter from a young man in York St., Kingstown c.1825, saying he'd recently begun studying theology at Trinity College Dublin. The lad had a long posh name. He may have known the McCaul family.
https://csorp.nationalarchives.ie
Searchable by key word and can filter by year. If filtering by year, select year before putting keyword into search box or the word disappears.

A new attraction which arrived in Dunleary/Kingstown while Mr McCaul lived there was a prison hulk in the harbour. Several local doctors applied to be ship surgeon. There were occasional convict escapes. Even more exciting was the arrival of the railway in 1834, the first passenger railway in Ireland. More news to make headlines was King George IV embarking at Kingstown in 1821. RootsChat member Killiney History posted a link yesterday to fresh articles on Killiney History website. Royal visits featured.   

P.S. No need to quote entire posts in replies. Just say which post number you're replying to or quote the relevant part.     

 
 




   
                                         
                                                 


Cowban

Offline baz201

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #87 on: Saturday 15 January 22 09:23 GMT (UK) »
Quote
I was looking for something else in Chief Secretary's Office Registered Papers and noticed a letter from a young man in York St., Kingstown c.1825, saying he'd recently begun studying theology at Trinity College Dublin. The lad had a long posh name. He may have known the McCaul family.
https://csorp.nationalarchives.ie
Searchable by key word and can filter by year. If filtering by year, select year before putting keyword into search box or the word disappears.

A new attraction which arrived in Dunleary/Kingstown while Mr McCaul lived there was a prison hulk in the harbour. Several local doctors applied to be ship surgeon. There were occasional convict escapes. Even more exciting was the arrival of the railway in 1834, the first passenger railway in Ireland. More news to make headlines was King George IV embarking at Kingstown in 1821. RootsChat member Killiney History posted a link yesterday to fresh articles on Killiney History website. Royal visits featured.   

Yes, I got the valuations from ancestry.com (the only site I have full access to atm)

I looked at the Papers website and am not sure if I found the exact letter to which you refer.

I found the following:
NAI REFERENCE:   CSO/RP/1825/130
TITLE:   Petition of Hervey de Montmorency, Kingstown, County Dublin, requesting advance of a pension or allowance of £50 per year
SCOPE & CONTENT:   
Petition of Hervey de Montmorency, York Street, Kingstown [Dunleary; Dún Laoghaire], County Dublin, to Richard Wellesley, 1st Marquis Wellesley, Lord Lieutenant, Dublin Castle, requesting advance of a pension or allowance of £50 per year. States his father is Francis Hervey de Montmorency, 3rd viscount Mountmorres, and observes in 1817 he presented a memorial to Earl Whitworth, [Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, 1813-1817] for a position of employment under government. Acknowledges reply indicating his name had been added to a list for a position in civil office, but adds that he has received no further communication on the matter. Remarks he is now at [Dublin] university and ‘nearly a candidate for holy orders’ but enjoys little financial support. Confirms a number of near relatives such as Arthur Hill-Trevor, 2nd Viscount Dungannon, Colonel [Reymond] de Montmorency and General Brown, will provide a character reference for him.
EXTENT:   1 item; 3pp
DATE(S):   10 Feb 1825
DATE EARLY:   1825
DATE LATE:   1825
ORIGINAL REFERENCE:   1825/11099

There was also a guy with a posh sounding name, Charles Whitworth Ferrall b 1818, Co Dublin, brother of Mary Ann Ferrall (Michael McCaull's wife who died young). He would have been too young though at the time ... He later went on to become a Rev. He married Elizabeth Ann Eaton Mills in Melton Mowbray in Apr 1859. He was vicar at Langtoft, Lincolnshire 1875-85+. He died in Rutland, England in Oct 1890, (Uppingham, Rutland, England) 

 


   
                                         
                                                 

Offline baz201

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #88 on: Saturday 15 January 22 17:24 GMT (UK) »
There's also this one for a Michael McCaull:

I may have found the birth and death details for the "Generosus" Bernard McCall (father of Michael McCaull according to TCD record kindly posted by shaunJ b. Abt 1782, d. 1868 Cootehill, Co Cavan. This is in the Irish civil deaths index so there is no indication of his religion, nor many details at all.

There is a 'Bernard McCaul' who appears several times in the Ireland, Petty Sessions Court Registers in Carrickmacross, Co Monaghan as a complainant, witness and defendant, 1855-1865 (which I found in the findmypast search engine. - I only have access to the search engine and not the results). In fact on ancestry.com there are 253 hits for Bernard McCaul in  the Petty Session Court Registers, mostly in Carrickmacross, Co Monaghan. I think he must have possibly been in the legal profession, along with a son or grandson of the same name as the dates stretch well into the 1900s.
 
Still don't have any other definite details for Bernard Snr, such as date /place of birth or marriage details. I'm assuming he was from Co Monaghan as his son Michael was born there (according to TCD record kindly posted by ShaunJ

I post the TCD entry from ShaunJ once more

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Charles Nathaniel McCaull, Surgeon b abt 1828 Ireland
« Reply #89 on: Yesterday at 03:38 »
Reply #87 Hervey de Montmorency is your man. Definitely in the high echelons of posh names. He may be implying in his letter that if he can't get a government job he'll have to become a clergyman. Younger sons of nobility went into army, navy, church or government. Fewer openings in army or navy as UK was at peace.

You don't need a subscription to see Griffiths' Valuation. Free on National Archives Ireland website or Ask About Ireland. Tithe Applotment Books and Will Calendars also free to search & view on NAI.
https://www.askaboutireland.ie

Reply #88 McCall + variants is a common surname. There was probably more than 1 Bernard around at a time. Bryan is an alternative to Bernard. Some used either name.
Treat age at death as an estimate unless deceased was a child. The older the person, the more likely age was estimated. A lot of old people in Ireland didn't know their true age until old age pensions were introduced in 1909 and they had to show proof of age, possibly for the first time in their lives.

Petty Sessions Courts dealt mainly with minor crimes. A sizeable proportion were revenue offences such as weights & measures. If the Bernard McCaull family was a member of the upper classes, a landowner maybe, one of them may have been a Justice of the Peace and presided at the court. Name of presiding JP would have been in newspaper reports.
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-petty-sessions.html
 A woman with the same names as my GGM and great-aunt (Catherine) was forever in trouble in Ballyhaunis and spent time in prison. So I get loads of results for my GGM's name but none of them were her.
 
The Michael McCAULL, son of Bernard may not have been "your" Michael MCCaull. This one was stated to be R.C. He may have changed his religious affiliation. Michael and Bernard are names associated more with Catholics. One would expect Michael, son of Bernard, to name a son Bernard.
You can check how common a surname was in a county on John Grenham's Irish Ancestors Wizard.
https://www.johngrenham.com/wizard

I suggest that if you want to pursue the Bernard McCaull of Monaghan, you start a new post on the Monaghan board, including a link back to this one. I also suggest that first, you pause to explore the sources and guides we recommended. A good thing about Irish FH research is that a lot of sources are accessible at no charge.
Most 19thC censuses were destroyed. Many C. of I. registers and wills were a war casualty 100 years ago. R.C. registers in many places didn't begin until mid 19thC or didn't survive. We need to use a wide range of other resources to work around these gaps. You need to know what those sources are, to understand them, and how to make best use of them.
An understanding of Irish land divisions, townlands, civil parishes and civil registration districts/Poor Law Unions is also important.   
 
Cowban