Brick Wall. Henry and Thomas Mantell, possibly Shropshire and Birmingham.

[JenB]

Your Henry born about 1845 is a bit of a mystery.  I can’t see a birth registration for him. I have now found him on the 1861 census aged 15 a hairdresser born Birmingham. Do you have a birth certificate or a baptism for him?

That was what we were originally asked to look for 

I mentioned the 1861 census for him in reply #1.

It’s still a bit of a mystery.

[yecartmannew]

Your Henry born about 1845 is a bit of a mystery.  I can’t see a birth registration for him. I have now found him on the 1861 census aged 15 a hairdresser born Birmingham. Do you have a birth certificate or a baptism for him?

No, the earliest i have dicumented for him is 1871, then masses of info later. Hiwever several lines if enquiry ha e been mentioned up thread which may be helpfull, i just hav'nt had time to look properly .

[yecartmannew]

I wonder if the Thomas Mantell referred to in post 15 by John might be worth exploring further.

This is the 1851 census for him showing as nephew of James Mantell living in West Bromwich

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGGZ-TPJ

James Mantell's place of birth is clearly shown as Hopton Wafers in the following censuses. There is, I note, a baptism for a James Mantle 22 July 1810 in Neen Savage - parents James and Sarah. Neen Savage is very near to Hopton Wafers.

A search in the newspaper archive shows a notice in the Birmingham Journal  20 July 1867 of the marriage of Thomas Mantell. The wording is interesting as it states Thomas Mantell, nephew of James Mantell, coach builder. Like Henry's it was a non conformist wedding.

 Further newspaper notices from 1870 show that James Mantell was retiring from his coach building business in favour of his nephew Thomas.

James Mantell died in West Bromwich in 1880 aged 69 and left a will - might it be worth a punt in case Henry is mentioned?

( Also worth noting that the James showing as nephew to Charles in the 1871 census has the occupation of coach painter - presumably coach builders required coach painters!).

William

I can't find the probate / will for James on the gov probate page, but I can see it on ancestry.  I don't normally have problems finding probate / wills. What a puzzle...

Edit, found it now and have ordered a copy.

[Millmoor]

If you simply search for Mant or Mant* it should come up ( I had the same problem with my Postle ancestors - typing the full surname produced zero results!).

The entry is for James Mantell 3 December The will of James Mantell late of West Bromwich in the county of Stafford who died 6 March 1880 at West Bromwich was proved at Lichfield by Elizabeth Reeves Mantell of West Bromwich Widow the Relict one of the Executors.

While I am here on the subject of wills I note that the Probate Calendar for Charles Creighton Mantell uses the expression administration with will. Have you obtained these documents although, as I understand it and others who have contributed to the thread may correct me on this, you might simply receive the letters of administration if you apply for them.

This may be a red herring but have you researched Louisa Smith b c 1849 who would appear to have been living with Charles Creighton Mantell and his father? ( see 1921 census free index and 1939 reg). She died in 1943, her probate entry saying she was of 21 Cregoe Street, probate to Joseph Edwin Winter, retired commercial clerk.

William

[yecartmannew]

If you simply search for Mant or Mant* it should come up ( I had the same problem with my Postle ancestors - typing the full surname produced zero results!).

The entry is for James Mantell 3 December The will of James Mantell late of West Bromwich in the county of Stafford who died 6 March 1880 at West Bromwich was proved at Lichfield by Elizabeth Reeves Mantell of West Bromwich Widow the Relict one of the Executors.

While I am here on the subject of wills I note that the Probate Calendar for Charles Creighton Mantell uses the expression administration with will. Have you obtained these documents although, as I understand it and others who have contributed to the thread may correct me on this, you might simply receive the letters of administration if you apply for them.

This may be a red herring but have you researched Louisa Smith b c 1849 who would appear to have been living with Charles Creighton Mantell and his father? ( see 1921 census free index and 1939 reg). She died in 1943, her probate entry saying she was of 21 Cregoe Street, probate to Joseph Edwin Winter, retired commercial clerk.

William

Thank you, yes I found it by entering Mant.

Regarding Creighton s will, it's sad and fascinating. He wrote the will in 1927 shortly after his own father died. Unfortunately he later was committed to a psychiatric hospital so would not have been deemed sound enough to change it. By the time he died everybody mentioned in the will had pre deceased him.

Louisa Smith was the family housekeeper (started as a Mother’s  help ) and was very close to Creighton.

[yecartmannew]

I'm just after your thoughts if possible please.

As above, Henry Mantell b. abt 1845 is on the 1971 Census (which was taken on 2nd April) as lodging at Wellington Road, Birmingham

A month later, on 25th May he marries Catherine and gives his address on the marriage certificate as 214 Bristol Street, Birmingham.

The distance between the 2 is almost 4 miles which is around an hour on foot or 30 - 45 minutes on a horse drawn omnibus.

My question is, how likely is this? How far would someone have commuted for work in those days?

As this record also gives a birth place of France (only other place for this fact is the 1851 census) is it probable they are the same person or more likely to be 2 separate people?

[jaywit]

Addresses given on marriage are not always the person's permanent address.

Did they marry in C of E church?

If so as it the parish church of Catherine?

If they lived in separate parishes and admitted it then banns would have to be read in both parishes, if the person who lived in the opposite parish could come up with an address in the parish where the marriage was to take place then Banns would only have to be read in the 1 parish.

My father did this in the 1930s

[softly softly]

As per your last post was he aged 126 on the 1971 census

John

[yecartmannew]

As per your last post was he aged 126 on the 1971 census

John

Long lived family, ours