John and Ann Daniel or Daniels, Caythorpe, Lincolnshire, England

[daniels9937]

John Daniels was born 17 May 1817 in Carlton, Lincolnshire, England and baptiized on 1 Jun 1817 in Caythorpe, Lincolnshire, England at St. Vincents.  On the baptismal record it had the name of his mother only-Ann.  When John is older I find him in Nottinghamshire then he moves to Canada and eventually to New York.  On his cemetery record in Oswego, NY it lists his parents as John and Ann Daniel.  I'm unsure if I should consider John illegitimate since only Ann's name is on the record.  And I'm unsure if I can trust the cemetery records from 1877.  I've tried finding a girl named Ann marrying a John Daniel but I can never confirm if it's the right person.  If anyone knows how to track this down I'd be very appreciative to get some help. 

[CaroleW]

Welcome to Rootschat

In the absence of a fathers name, I think you will have to accept he was illegitimate as long as you are sure you have the right baptismal entry.

Illegitimacy was a lot more of a "stigma" in those days than now & you will find very many posts here where illegitimate brides/bridegrooms have fabricated a fathers name to appear "respectable"

Some have also used the names of grandfathers or uncles

Did he marry Matilda Matkin in 1845?  Did he show his father as John on the marriage cert?

[daniels9937]

He did marry Matilda Matkin but she was his second wife.  First wife was Sarah Fairbanks 

Copy of record lists no father for him:  Detail Source
Name:   John Daniel
Gender:   Male
Marriage Date:   25 Dec 1838
Marriage Place:   Norwell and Carlton On Trent,Nottingham,England
Spouse:   
Sarah Fairbanks
FHL Film Number:   504065

Then Matilda:    View record
NameMatilda Matkin GenderFemale Age25Birth  Date1820 Marriage Date27 Jan 1845 Marriage Place Caythorpe, Lincoln, England SpouseJohn Daniel FHL Film Number1542302Reference IDi tem 2 p 19Household members

Would you say that since there are no fathers in either record that it means he's illegitiment? If that's the case that's fine.  Any suggestions on how to track Ann after this?  It's too early for census records.  Is there some other information that can help me to figure out if she married and took John into the marriage with her?

Thanks for the reply

Carla

[Girl Guide]

Just for reference the Matilda Matkin marriage image says:-

Married on 27th January 1845 at Caythorpe, Lincs.  John Daniel, age 27, widower, labourer.  Father John Daniel, labourer.

Matilda Matkin, age 25, spinster, father Thomas Matkin, carpenter.

Both living in Caythorpe and the witnesses are William and Elizabeth Matkin.

John previously married then, so same man or a different John Daniel?

[daniels9937]

The person I am looking for is John's  (1817) father.  I have a lot of information on John and his marriages to Sarah and Matilda.  The record you found that says his father's name is John Daniel?  That's a more inclusive record than I've found.  Where did you get that?

The thing is I can't find a John Daniel that married an Ann in Caythorpe before John's birth that fits. I've been looking for a John and Ann that had a son John in1817. Nor can I tell which other kids were born to John and Ann that were John Jr. sisters and brothers.  Not knowing Ann's maiden name is messing me up. 

I have been told that in England, the first born son is generally names after the father and the first daughter named after the mother.  Is that something you can confirm?

So now seeing the marriage record that you sent, would you assume John (1817) was not illegitimate?
Or could it have been a case where they lied about his father?  I assume his father would not have to be present when the marriage info was given.

Thanks for the guidance so far.  I did genealogy over 20 years ago and just picked it up again a couple months ago.  I've still got a lot to learn.

Thanks,
Carla

[CaroleW]

John previously married Sarah Fairbank or Fairbanks Dec qtr 1838 Southwell 15  1173

Sarah died aged 27 Dec qtr 1844 Newark 15 377

[Girl Guide]

Hmm, I have found a marriage between a Sarah Fairbanks and a John Daniel on 25th December 1838 at St. Lawrence Church, Norwell in Notts.

Free bmd has it as:-

Marriages Dec 1838   
DANIEL    John        Southwell    15   1173    
FAIRBANK    Sarah        Southwell    15   1173

Death of a Sarah Daniels which is near enough age wise

DANIELS, SARAH       27 
GRO Reference: 1844  D Quarter in OF THE NEWARK UNION  Volume 15  Page 377

This would then fit the John Daniel marriage in 1845 to Matilda.

1841 census living at Norwell, Southwell, Nottinghamshire - John and Sarah
Registration district Southwell
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 866
Book number 13
Folio number 4
Page number 2

1851 census living at Caythorpe, Newark, Lincolnshire - John and Matilda
Registration district Newark
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 2138
Folio 261
Page 7

[daniels9937]

Right I have those marriages and the census for John (1817).  Now just wondering about that John's parents: Ann and John. So since John and Sarah/Matilda end up moving to Nottingham, I would assume that since John and Ann baptized John (1817) in Caythorpe, Lincolnshire that they would live there. Do you think it's possible that they could have baptized him in Lincolnshire but lived in Nottinghamshire? 

[Maiden Stone]

I have been told that in England, the first born son is generally names after the father and the first daughter named after the mother.  Is that something you can confirm?

Custom at the time was to name first son after one of his grandfathers, usually paternal grandfather. 2nd son was usually named for maternal grandfather. Eldest 2 daughters customarily named after grandmothers. 3rd son & daughter traditionally named after parents. This pattern wasn't always adhered to. 
It's anybody's guess why John got that name. Choice of name was probably his mother's. She may have named him after her father or his father or his paternal grandfather if she knew his name, or one of her brothers, or none of them.
Considering names of illegitimate male children in 19thC. to my families:
1 after his maternal grandfather
1 after his paternal grandfather. Father's name is on birth certificate (although not in baptism register*) and married the mother 2 years later as soon as she was 21. *Baby was baptised in C. of E. Father was R.C. They married in R.C. church. Her father may have refused permission for the marriage. The couple were witnesses to a wedding at the parish church. C. of E. when their baby was 5 months old. The baby died the next month.
1 possibly after the king.  (Definitely not after anyone in the father's family)
1 after nobody in the mother's family.