Author Topic: Servants and where they lived  (Read 553 times)

Offline daniels9937

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Servants and where they lived
« on: Sunday 03 April 22 18:41 BST (UK) »
I have two relatives that married in 1838.  At the time of the marriage both were servants.  Is there any way to research which household they worked in?  Both were living in Norwell, Nottinghamshire.  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Offline heywood

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Re: Servants and where they lived
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 03 April 22 18:45 BST (UK) »
Do you mean they married each other?
If so, do you have them in 1841?

They could still be living at home on their marriage not necessarily in an employer’s residence.
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Offline daniels9937

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Re: Servants and where they lived
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 03 April 22 18:54 BST (UK) »
Yes I have them in 1841 living in Southwell, Nottinghamshire with their kids.  It says he's an Ag laborer.  What I'm really trying to do is find his mother, Ann Daniels and I thought she might have worked at the same house as her son.  Probably just another dead end.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Servants and where they lived
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 03 April 22 22:21 BST (UK) »
Yes I have them in 1841 living in Southwell, Nottinghamshire with their kids.  It says he's an Ag laborer.  What I'm really trying to do is find his mother, Ann Daniels and I thought she might have worked at the same house as her son. 

Did the ag. lab. live in a cottage on a farm or a cottage in the village? Whose household was he in? Was he head of household?
If he lived in a cottage on a farm and if he was head of household he probably worked for the farmer. If he lived in a farm cottage have you looked at neighbouring households to find one headed by a farmer who employed a man or men? You could then investigate tithe records and maps to find names of occupiers and owners of land. 
If he lived in a cottage in a village he might have worked for any farmer in the area.
Was his occupation simply "servant" when he married? A male servant may have worked indoors or may have been an outdoor servant or a farm servant.
 Female house servants were poorly paid. One of my ancestors, an innkeeper's widow of independent means, living with adult children + 2 grandchildren was able to employ 2 female servants in 1841. 
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Offline daniels9937

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Re: Servants and where they lived
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 03 April 22 23:04 BST (UK) »
Your post had lots of great ideas but I have no idea where he lived.  I am trying to figure that out but I'm unsure how to start.  The marriage record said Kneesal, Southwell, Nottinghamshire, England.  Is that a small enough area to only have a few options to check out?  Plus I'm unsure if there is any record of servants on an estate.  Perhaps you know.  I need some guidance on how to start this search.  I've googled the area but there isn't much to let me know which places would have had a large staff.  I'm in the US so I'm unfamiliar with the area or what it was like in the 1830's.  I can't tell who he was working for based on the census.  Would you assume that if others on the census form he's on might also work there?  Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Servants and where they lived
« Reply #5 on: Monday 04 April 22 02:48 BST (UK) »
My ancestors and some of my closer family were ag. labs from long time past until late 20th century - including migrant labourers, seasonal labourers, permanent labourers in tied cottages who were evicted if they lost the job, shepherds, cowmen and a farm bailiff.

If you want detailed historical information about specific places in Nottinghamshire you'd do better to ask on the Nottinghamshire board.
Many historic maps are online. National Library of Scotland map library is one most of us use. https://maps.nls.uk  It has several ways of finding the right map. Easiest way for you may be to use Map Finder and enter name of a place e.g. Southwell then select one of the dated maps which appear on the right of the screen. I tried it with 6 inch Ordnance Survey map series. Earliest one in the collection for Southwell is 1880s. Southwell is split between 2 maps. It was then a town. It may have been smaller in 1840.
GENUKI is a website which has information about places + lists of resources for family historians + maps.
https://www.genuki.org.uk
It's a volunteer site and some places have more information than others. An internet search for genuki and a place and county should find the relevant pages. Southwell's claims to fame are as the birthplace of Bramley apples and the boyhood home of Lord Byron. A chart shows population sizes at each census. Hiring fairs for servants were held in Southwell twice yearly in February and November.  There were several big houses and halls mentioned on GENUKI.     
 Records of large estates are usually in county or other local archives. You need to know what you're looking for before you start looking e.g. name of estate or name of owner.
A land survey & valuation was carried out in England 1830s - 1850s  for a local tax assessment called a tithe. Resulting records and maps are in National Archives and on The Genealogist website (subscription) and may be in some county archives. Tithe records on The Genealogist can be searched by surname.

You're making an incorrect assumption that only large estates employed servants and farm labourers. Work in all houses, gardens and on farms was labour-intensive.
Wages were low for servants and farm labourers - a few shillings per week, a few pounds a year.
 People of modest means like my 4xGGM on 1841 census could afford to keep a servant (2 in her case). She lived in a terraced house in a respectable area of town; it had 4 or 5 rooms including living rooms and bedrooms and housed 9 people.
Servant was the most common female occupation in England in the 19th century. Vicars, doctors, solicitors would have 1 or more servants. A shopkeeper in my extended family had a female servant in 19thC. Shopkeeper's dad was a retired boilermaker (skilled working class), his sisters worked in cotton mills from a young age.

Large farms and estates employed many labourers, some permanent, some seasonal. Smaller farms would employ fewer or perhaps only seasonal labour. My farm bailiff began as a teenage migrant seasonal farm labourer from Ireland, working with a gang, following a tradition of migrant labour which had begun in the second decade of 19th century. His first settled job in England was for an innkeeper & farmer who employed only him. Later he worked on a bigger farm nearby where he became farm bailiff and lived in a farm cottage, one of a row on the farm, across the road from the hall where his boss lived. Eventually he moved into the hall farmhouse. His employer owned several farms, some of them smaller.
Browsing the census enumerator's book for 1851 which gave people's relationships to heads of households may give you an idea of the type of households with servants. Farmers gave information about acreage and number of employees on some census returns.       
     
 
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Offline heywood

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Re: Servants and where they lived
« Reply #6 on: Monday 04 April 22 08:30 BST (UK) »
Is this your relative?
Marriage December quarter 1838 Southwell
John Daniel and Sarah Fairbank

1841 866/4/2
Norwell
John Daniel 25 yrs
Sarah Daniel 20yrs
John Daniel 1 yrs
Mary Ann Daniel 1 week
George Fairbanks 13 yrs

They are all shown as born in county - that is Nottinghamshire  and note there is a variation on both surnames with the  ‘s’.

The family above are also ‘Ag Lab’ but above that one is Mary Bamford, 60 yrs, Farmer.
The family below John Daniel is also ‘Ag Lab’ and the one below that is Thomas Templeman, farmer.

Now…
1851 2138 /261/7
Caythorpe, Lincolnshire

John Daniels, 33 yrs Agr. labourer b Lincolnshire, Caythorpe.

John has a new wife, Matilda  - 1845 marriage in registration district Newark, Notts /Lincs border
Death of Sarah Daniel’s 1844.

There is a birth/christening record
John Daniels 1st June 1817 Caythorpe - mother Ann Daniels.

This seems to fit with your search for Ann.

Ann may have married or be deceased by 1841.

Norwell and Caythorpe are around 17 miles apart. The difficulty is, I think, that not finding Ann Daniel/s in censuses and at the moment only in the birth record, she could have been working as a servant too at the time of John’s birth. There is no place to look for her as she may not be born either place.
I have tried both places for any possible reference to her but nothing yet.
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Servants and where they lived
« Reply #7 on: Monday 04 April 22 14:41 BST (UK) »
Reply 6 heywood. Some information in your post is in 2 other threads about John Daniels. 
Cowban