Unscrambling obscure 1816 Church of England source

[Ashtone]

Here's a 1799 baptism:

England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Petrus Gassiot
Birth date 06 May 1799
Southwark, St George's Cathedral, Surrey
Father's name John Peter Gassiot
Mother's first name(s) Henriettae

[mckha489]

I’ve been wondering (since there is no actual death for Francis), if Peter and Francis were the same person. Since Francis had ship/s.

But I don’t think they can be. Too many children both sides of the Atlantic.

[Ashtone]

It seems odd for Peter Gassiot to be alias Samuel Dixon if he had a brother named Samuel.

Still confusing, but here's a possibly relevant TNA record:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10048017

Samuel Dixon alias Peter Gassiot, born: Bishopsgate, Middlesex; Age at attestation: 21.
Attested: Woolwich; Joined in 1820; Discharge reason: Served 22 years; Discharge year: 1842.

So would this be the chap born in 1799? Born in Bishopsgate, and baptised in Southwark?

[Ashtone]

In which case, is this also him? There's also an 1862 Probate Index record for him.

Deaths Mar 1862   
Gassiot    Peter        Greenwich    1d   488    
GASSIOT    Peter Samuel Dixon        Greenwich    1d   47[41]    
Gassiot    Peter Samuel Dixon        Greenwich    1d   476    

[mckha489]

Yes, that’s who I was looking at,

There is no will. It’s just an administration.

He is a royal marine at his marriage to Sarah WARE, and a Greenwich pensioner. (FindMyPast and census)


Trees have this text re Francis

“
FRANCIS GASSIOT lived in the home of his brother JOHN PETER for 10 years.  In 1828, at the age of 19, he discovered that a future marriage between himself and a cousin of his brother's wife, a member of the WARE family of Suffolk had been arranged.  Upon this discover, with which he found distate, he left for America.  He landed in Philidelphia in November 1828, where his arrival was documented in offical records as:  "FRANCIS GASSIOT, of France, arrived from Carshalton in London."  He is the only emigrant to ever arrive anywhere in the United States (as far as can be determined by offical recores) with the GASSIOT surname.“


The Ware connection is why I was wondering if Peter and Francis could be the same man

I cannot see that Nov 1828 immigration record.


Edited to make a bit more sense (I hope!)

[CLP04893824]

This is great, thank you both.

Conscious you're travelling some of the ground I've covered - but finding some new things! (especially that 1828 passport for Francis) - let me give the background which I should have done first, apologies.

Taking a couple of steps back, my own focus is John Peter Gassiot, eldest surviving son, 1797-1877, a notable figure in Clapham, where I'm based. Am pretty confident about him / well researched.

I've also researched his mother, Harriet Dixon (B, M and D, probate etc) and his father John Peter Gassiot (only M, not birth in ?Fr/Sp, nor death ?here). I've found lots on his various failed wine import businesses, his move to Edinburgh perhaps to avoid creditors, and am guessing he died around mid 1820s (nothing found on that).

Their children were:
Peter b1796, presumed death before 1799
John Peter as above
Peter 1799-1862, life fully researched (Royal Marines, marriage, children, etc including his adoption of a family name on his mother's side)
Then there is Samuel, b1813 Edinburgh - ?died, a real mystery
and also two children cited in the original American research -
Marie, claimed birth 1801, no source cited, no records found
and Francis who went to America where there's an extended family.

Those catholic baptisms feel highly significant and explain the absence of the usual parish records except marriage (Samuel in Edinburgh is the outlier.) A baptism for Francis c1802 onwards would be a major breakthrough. I've trawled every single entry in the RC St George's register (hence found the earlier Peter one, mistranscribed).

There is an entry record for Francis in November 1828 into Philadelphia (no age) and lots in American sources thereafter, including this passport application from 1836 (no age): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1174/images/USM1371_1-0081?pId=1117654
There's also a New York entry record in 1833 where the cited age implies birth of 1804.

The 1828 passport application feels very significant and is not mentioned elsewhere as far as I know.

Hope that puts things into context and explains my focus on Francis and that strange reference to 1816 (and the claimed birth date as 1809). 

At risk of overwhelming you, here's a write up which the family in America have of their origins. It's a mixture of facts and if not fiction, then misunderstanding and surmise. http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gassiot/genealogy/history/roger.htm

You can see the problem. So I'm trying to bottom out the English (and now Scottish) components. Tricky enough, before embarking on France and Spain. The American end looks well worked over, albeit differing names and dates.

Anyway, thanks again, keep the ideas coming - it's a tough one! 

[mckha489]

Random thoughts.

It seems odd that Harriet Gassiot nee Dixon, does not mention any other children in her will.

So, one would assume Samuel in Scotland died. Before 1848.

It’s a very detailed Will. Surely, if Francis Joseph was her son, she would at least mention him, even if to say he wasn’t getting anything, or to give him a notional shilling.


Since you are in Clapham, would it be worth your while to go to Lambeth Palace Library and ask for their thoughts on that 1816 reference.

[CLP04893824]

Random thoughts are good (!)

#1 Yes, that sounds right and I'd discounted the Marie story on those grounds (if she was unmarried and in Leeds with mother she'd surely have had a mention). Samuel must have died young, otherwise there'd be some trace elsewhere. Francis is more tricky - alive but out of touch or estranged? Even if not estranged, in those days did you/could you leave money to overseas beneficiaries? Maybe just not practical.
# 2 Great idea, I shall do that, and there's the additional mention in that longer family history of the 1816 institution being a school, presumably church run.

Correction to my late night post - the baptism of the first son Peter (1796) was in Stepney, not Southwark. I've tried to track where the family were living, to link to a parish whether CofE or RC, but father was in and out of debtors prisons in London. From 1807 I've tracked them to Edinburgh.

The other correction is that the 1836 passport application does give an age. So now we have 1802, 1804 and 1805 for Francis birth (respectively from first passport 1828, New York arrival 1833, second passport 1836).

If only the original American researcher had named all his sources. The bottom line is as yet there's nothing concrete to tie Francis to the family here. I'm even wondering if it's significant brothers John Peter and Peter didn't include Francis in the naming of their own children (nor Samuel or Marie for that matter).

Just got to keep looking.

[mckha489]

It was only 1848. People could leave money to people in other countries no trouble. I have a 1795 American one leaving money and land to a son in England.
The son died in 1823, and there were at least two trips back to America between 1795 and 1823

It is, go course easier if the testator knows where they are. But I've seen another will, where they said something to the effect of " My son James beyond the seas, if he be still alive".

That longer history says Harriet died 1813 in a fire! When she plainly did not. I cannot even find the death that that could be.
The researcher must have seen something about the orphanage you wouldn't make a story like that up, But what it might be goodness knows. The other thing about that is, that if Harriet had died in 1813, John Peter would have been 16 which I think in those days would have meant he, at least,  was considered well able to support himself.

Do the wills of any others of Harriet's family mention the Gassiots?