Margaret Alice HOWARTH or Alice Margaret Howarth

[glendan561]

Between 1874 and 1884 I can find three women with this name or variations of on passenger lists arriving Port Chalmers or Lyttleton. There is Alice Howarth 15 years old travelling with two other women with the same surname however, I don't believe they are related, aboard the Dunfillan. Her destination is Invercargill. There is Margaret Alice HOWARTH aged 26, married to John Howarth 24, destination Wellington and Margaret (spelled Margarit on passenger list) Haworth destination Invercargill aboard the Florida.

I know the Margaret Alice I'm searching for wasn't married and the destination of Wellington doesn't fit. I think 15 year old Alice might have gone to work for Hector & Margaret McNeil, perhaps to help Margaret with their young family? The older Margaret Howarth (Haworth) was also destined for for Invercargill but in 1884.

From information I've been given from family, we know Margaret Alice had two children, Annie b. 1885 and Albert Hector b. 1887. Annie was born in Lumsden but died aged only 49 days and I have ordered a copy of her birth and death certificates. Albert Hector was born Gordon Street, Christchurch in what I think was the Canterbury Women's Refuge - but I could be mistaken. No father's name was recorded for either child. I have also ordered Albert Hector's birth certificate.

Margaret Alice died in 1891, found on a bench in Hagley Park, Christchurch and the coronial inquest found she had probably died from exposure due to influenza although conversely, her employer, Mrs Harriet Williams claimed her employee was "hail and hearty" when she last saw her. Interestingly, on the death certificate it states Albert was living with his mother, aged 4 years but without any relatives whatsoever, he was placed in the Canterbury Orphanage. On her death certificate she is Alice Margaret Howarth, aged 24 years.

I'm wondering how Margt. Alice would have travelled to Lumsden if she was in the Lochiel area of Otago? Would this have been by train? Until I see Annie's birth certificate I won't know whether she was in fact born outside of Lumsden or in Lumsden itself. Where would a young unmarried woman give birth to a baby? Moreover, how would she have travelled from Lumsden to Christchurch? I doubt she had much in the way of money, unless her employers were generous people.

Many thanks in advance and apologies for the longwinded summary.
Glenda

[Lucy2]

Hello Glenda 

Sorry, just having a little difficulty in deciphering exactly what information you are wanting.

Is it just the questions in penultimate paragraph that you are wanting answers for ??  Travelling to Lumsden etc. etc.  ?? 

   ~  Lu

[Lucy2]

Just adding the newspaper reporting of the inquest into the death of Alice Margaret HOWARTH.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18911130.2.21

   ~   Lu

[Lucy2]

Between 1874 and 1884 I can find three women with this name or variations of on passenger lists arriving Port Chalmers or Lyttleton. There is Alice Howarth 15 years old travelling with two other women with the same surname however, I don't believe they are related, aboard the Dunfillan. Her destination is Invercargill.  .......

Hi

A woman named HOWARTH on the "Dunfillan" 1874 journey to Otago, died on board the ship.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18740120.2.14

  ...  "Dunfillan" - death of an elderly woman - a sufferer of heart disease - on her way to seek heath and to join her children (located in Queenstown) - died onboard on 17 November 1874 (at sea).
Her name was Alice HOWARTH, aged 61, a native of Yorkshire.

    ~  Lu

[glendan561]

The lady who died en route to NZ was Alice Howarth aged 61 years and, although she had the same name as 15 year old Alice Howarth, there is nothing to suggest they were related in any way. With regard to knowing she came from Lancashire, the short answer is we don't. The only concrete evidence we have comes from a great aunt who probably heard it from someone else and as she's no longer around, we can't verify the information. I am however, working my way through all registered births in England. I have checked Scotland on the off chance but no hits there.

Yes, she might have been born in the mid 1860s but once again, the 1859 date is another hand me down, so the search is wide.

Many thanks for the link to Paper Past, I have that and a copy of the coronial inquest where it does look as though her age has been altered, although still recorded as 24.

Thank you for your suggestions, much appreciated.

[Lucy2]

There is Alice Howarth 15 years old travelling with two other women with the same surname however, I don't believe they are related, aboard the Dunfillan. Her destination is Invercargill.

*    Do you know who this Alice HOWARTH SMALL is ??     She is buried at Lumsden.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/155711038/alice-small

The Alice HOWARTH aged 15 years aboard the "Dunfillan" to Port Chalmers (Dunedin) - arrived January 1874, would - if her age on passenger list was correct - have had a birth year of c. 1857.
According to the cemetery record above, the Alice HOWARTH SMALL was born in Lancashire, ENG. in 1857.    She married Andrew SMALL in 1874.   [Haven't checked further - only quoting what is apparently on the cemetery record. ]
-----

The Alice Margaret HOWARTH (d. at Christchurch) November 1891, is shown in the NZ BDM (online) Death Index, as aged 24 at death ... born c. 1867.    * Although the Linwood Cemetery (Christchurch) listing has her age "about 30 years".

    ~   Lu

[Lucy2]

Hello Glenda

Thanks for providing the updated information.   (Incidentally, my last post re: Lumsden and cemetery record, was posted before I read your reply. ]

I'm still though, not sure, what information you are wanting ??   

*    You've given us a lot of detail about women named Alice / Margaret Alice / HOWARTH arriving in NZ.    Question : Can two of these now be ruled out ??

*    Then you've mentioned the Alice Margaret HOWARTH (d. at CHCH 1891) - but say it's a Margaret Alice you're looking for ?   And yet you've given info about AMH's children born 1885 and 1887, and that you have ordered birth/death certs, so it would seem that you've determined that Alice Margaret, is really the Margaret Alice you seek ??  Question :  Is that correct ??

*   Perhaps you could tell us what the connection is with this woman ?     
    Question :   Are you following her via her son - Hector Albert / Albert Hector  ??

*    Question :    Are you looking to find where Alice Margaret HOWARTH came from ??
[Note :   Perhaps it's best to wait until you have receipt of her children's birth and death records ?
If you've ordered the printouts (rather than "certificates"), it should show on these, the "place of birth of mother". ]

It's difficult at this stage to answer - or even guess at - the questions posed about travelling from Lumsden.

[Note : In the Inquest report, (or one version of it), it said that Alice Margaret was "staying with the widowed Mrs H Williams for a few weeks"  ... then went on to say (Alice) " was previously employed at the White Hart Hotel".
Also, if her son was born in Christchurch in 1887 ... then she'd been away from Lumsden for four years. ]

Happy to help with your queries but would just like to have your clarification on some details
 please.   
It's all too easy to go diving down "rabbit holes" or spend time on searching needlessly.   

     Cheers,     ~  Lu

[glendan561]

Hello Lu,
The only absolute details I have are the date of her death, the dates her children were born and the date her daughter, Annie, died. Her death certificate cites no information regarding parents or place of birth - all not known.

Unfortunately, there are 14 trees on Ancestry, connected to Albert Hector Howarth, which have his mother as being born 1858-59 and her parents being Richard Haworth and Sarah Pickup. One Ancestry DNA match claims she married someone by the name of Hector McDow - no dates given, and he apparently came from South Carolina in the US.

This research is for a descendent of Albert Hector's and I'm doing it as a favour, if only to find something more concrete for him.

In terms of her name, it might have been Margaret Alice or it might have been Alice Margaret which appears to be the name she went by. I'm unsure whether Mrs Harriet Williams was on the level when it came to her employee although it was through her comment to the inquest we learned Albert was still living with his mother at the time of her death.

All the trees on Ancestry have Albert's father as Acton McNeil, born in Scotland around 1828. I previously explained to the interested parties that the name was a transcription error but it went down regardless. I searched the Scottish records - both OPR and Statutory for Acton McNeil and found none.  Hector McNeil on the other hand I did find and there were in fact two in the Otago region in the mid to late 18th century. One of them was born in about 1826 and came to NZ with his wife and one year old daughter in 1860, spent a few months in the Dunedin area before moving south to Lochiel and New River where he purchased land and ran sheep on it. He and Margaret are buried at Winton. I only mention this because some family members claim the reason Hector is Albert's middle name is because Hector McNeil is his father.

The age discrepancy is another matter. As you note, the Linwood Cemetery details note her age as 30 and it occurred to me that someone might have had more detailed information about her than we know about and are probably not going to know about.

While I await the other certificates etc., I will begin another search of the passenger lists into NZ. Thank you for your help.

[Lucy2]

Thanks Glenda  ... that clarification helps alot.

Yes, I looked briefly at the (ancestry trees) for Albert Hector HOWARTH ... and saw there were discrepancies and perhaps a lot of guess work.   That's not to knock the effort put in by researchers, but if/when, there are errors and other people copy information to their own trees, these things multiply ... and there's always the thought that because these trees have been put online, they must be correct.   NOT so !!    We always advise caution when viewing trees - do your own research - then compare what others have.    And there's really no substitute for obtaining B D and M official records.  Sure, sometimes we're disappointed at the results received but they can also prove most worthwhile, when they help us break down brick walls.

Hopefully the birth / death records you've ordered will offer up some detail on his mother - her age in 1885 & 1887 / her birthplace / where she was living / who registered the births and also the death of wee Annie.  [Fingers crossed.  ]

Just wanted to ask you also --  is the copy which you have of the Inquest into Alice Margaret's death, available on FamilySearch ?   
[There are so many reporter's versions of same in the various newspapers, it's difficult to know just what is correct.  ]

    ~  Lu