John Valente

[Maiden Stone]

I looked again at the marriage of John Valente at St. Michael's church, Ancoats, 24th February 1921. There were 6 weddings that day. All couples had previously had a civil ceremony or a wedding in a non-Catholic church.

www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html

To see the transcription on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website:
1. Click on the link in my quote above
2. Select Marriages from menu on St. Michael's, Ancoats, Home page
3. Select Surname Index
4. Select letter V in Surname Index
5. Valente; Joannem; Spouse Taylor; 1921. Click on Joannem to see transcription.

Transcription reads:
Marriage 24 February 1921
Joannem Valente
Margaretam Taylor
Groom's parents: Henrici Valente & Catherinae Della Torare (Transcriber has put a question mark after Torare)
Bride's parents: Josephi Taylor & Margaretae
Witnesses: M.P. Ryan, Maria Brown
Married by Augustinus Moore O.S.M.
Notes: Jam civiliter 28 Marti 1911
Register: Marriage 1877-1923
Source: Original Register

Forenames are in Latin. Letters at end of Latin forenames change according to case (what role that person plays in a sentence).
Joannem = John
Margaretam and Margaretae = Margaret
Henerici = Henry
Catherinae = Catherine
Josephi = Joseph
Maria = Mary or Maria

You're fortunate that both mothers' names have been recorded. That evidence enabled heywood to find Joseph Taylor and his wife Margaret on a census. John's mother's full maiden name should, hopefully, be a big help in searching for his birth or baptism in Italy, although the transcriber was unsure if the last part of Catherine's name was Torare.
Witness J.P. Ryan was a priest. Witness Maria/Mary Brown witnessed a wedding the previous day and one the day after. Those marriages were also noted "Jam civiliter". The 3 weddings were all on weekdays. Maria/Mary Brown may have been priests' housekeeper or a woman who was frequently in the church on weekdays.
O.S.M. after the name of Augustine Moore is the abbreviation for the religious order to which the priest belonged.

Jam civiliter means the couple were already married in a civil marriage ceremony. Letters j and i are the same in Latin. The Latin word iam or jam = already. Some other entries in the marriage register have the note "Jam" followed by Latin words for non-Catholic church. The marriage register of St. Michael's contains 31 entries for February 1921. 26 were noted "Jam civiliter" and 3 others were noted as being already married in a non-Catholic church. Those 29 marriage ceremonies were in Lent, Easter Sunday was 27th March. Catholic custom was that marriages were not "solemnised" during Lent as it's not a time for celebration & feasting, so people generally didn't marry in Lent. Those marriages which were noted "Jam civiliter" were probably short, quiet, subdued, private ceremonies.  Average number of weddings per month at St. Michael's was 1-4. February 1921 was an exception. Around half of the first, register office marriage ceremonies happened in World War 1.
Catholic Church law on marriage changed in 1907, requiring a Catholic to marry in a Catholic church, in the bride's parish. The change came into effect at Easter 1908. Prior to 1908, the Catholic Church in England recognised marriages of Catholics in registry offices or churches of other denominations. I think there was another tweak to Catholic canon law on marriage in the next decade.
Those marriage ceremonies at St. Michael's in February 1921 look like a "tidying up" exercise of couples in the parish who married since 1908 but hadn't married in a Catholic church. 5 of the marriages involved people from Italian families. 

28 Marti 1911 = 28th March 1911

Where did the marriage on 28th March 1911 happen? Was it in a registry office?

[Maiden Stone]

I didn’t see that but in the past with microfilms, we used to go to a library and scroll through and read them. There was a facility to then print off the one record you need.
It seems old fashioned now.
If you are local, then a visit will be no bother but if you have to travel, it might be best to phone in case you have to book.

going to phone and book in on saturday

Have you found baptisms for John & Margaret's children? You could look for their baptisms while you're there. St. Michael's baptism registers on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website are too early for their children. A baby born to a Catholic family early 20th century would probably have been baptised within a couple of months of birth. If you find any of them, take a note of godparents as they may have been relatives or friends.
If you're allowed to print off or photograph a record you need, we can help with deciphering handwriting + translating Latin. RootsChat has a handwriting & translating section. You could ask for opinions about John's parents' names.

[Maiden Stone]

St Michael Ancoats
24th Feb 1921
Joannem Valente
Margaritam Taylor
Grooms parents Henerici Valenti and Catherinae Della Torre
Brides parents Joseph and Margaret Taylor
witnesses M P Ryan and Maria Brown
( Jam civililiter  28th Marti 1911

DID NOT MAKE THE CONNECTION AT FIRST CAN I GET A COPY ANYWHERE

Can you print off the transcription from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website? See my reply #117 for how to find the entry.

[Maiden Stone]

Deleted.

[Michael Craig]

I didn’t see that but in the past with microfilms, we used to go to a library and scroll through and read them. There was a facility to then print off the one record you need.
It seems old fashioned now.
If you are local, then a visit will be no bother but if you have to travel, it might be best to phone in case you have to book.

going to phone and book in on saturday

Have you found baptisms for John & Margaret's children? You could look for their baptisms while you're there. St. Michael's baptism registers on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website are too early for their children. A baby born to a Catholic family early 20th century would probably have been baptised within a couple of months of birth. If you find any of them, take a note of godparents as they may have been relatives or friends.
If you're allowed to print off or photograph a record you need, we can help with deciphering handwriting + translating Latin. RootsChat has a handwriting & translating section. You could ask for opinions about John's parents' names.

didnt think about god parent thank you have helped me lots

[heywood]

With regard to the baptism records you will want to check, Manchester Catholic Records Index show the following indexes from Latin records for John and Annie Valente.
The different endings to the names is simply the case ending of the word. (I have to go back to learning Latin a long time ago  )

https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records

All at St Michael’s Ancoats
1910
Joannes Valenti baptised
Joanni Valenti father of Joannes Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Joannes Valenti

1911
Antonius Valenti baptised
Joannes Valenti father of Antonius Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Antonius Valenti

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Has these births - mentioned before

1910 - John Valente with mother’s name Taylor
1911 - John Valente - mother Taylore
1914 - Anthony Valente mother Taylor

These don’t quite match but perhaps the second John was baptised Anthony?
There is a death for John 1910.

As Maiden Stone suggests, you will be able to search baptisms too when you visit the library.

[Michael Craig]

With regard to the baptism records you will want to check, Manchester Catholic Records Index show the following indexes from Latin records for John and Annie Valente.
The different endings to the names is simply the case ending of the word. (I have to go back to learning Latin a long time ago  )

https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records

All at St Michael’s Ancoats
1910
Joannes Valenti baptised
Joanni Valenti father of Joannes Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Joannes Valenti

1911
Antonius Valenti baptised
Joannes Valenti father of Antonius Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Antonius Valenti

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Has these births - mentioned before

1910 - John Valente with mother’s name Taylor
1911 - John Valente - mother Taylore
1914 - Anthony Valente mother Taylor

These don’t quite match but perhaps the second John was baptised Anthony?
There is a death for John 1910.

As Maiden Stone suggests, you will be able to search baptisms too when you visit the library.

are all these on the st michael church in ancoats

[heywood]

All at St Michael’s yes.

There are really only the two baptisms - 1910 for John and 1911 for  Antony - both baptisms show that John Valente and Annie Taylor are the parents.

If you go to the Catholic records site I linked (no need to log in) and enter the name Valente (sounded option) there is a list and similarly with Taylor. I restricted to those years.

[Michael Craig]

https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html   ISORRY I GOT IT LOOKING AT WRONG WEBSITE