JOHN BANGE

[IMBER]

Thanks GR2. I missed that bit about the census.

[Moonbabyx]

Two possible marriages:

John Bange m Henrietta Edwards, 1914 Dundee

John Bange m Ellen Carter, 1941 Dundee

From Dundee Evening Telegraph 28-6-1937:

BANGE. - At 2 Craigie Street, Dundee, on
the 27th June, Henrietta Edwards
Bange, daughter of the late Henry and
Margaret Edwards. Deeply mourned.

These 2 are the same John Bange because Henrietta died and he married Ellen, I’ve found the certificates and they match up. It’s not the John I’m looking for though unfortunately!

[Forfarian]

It’s not the John I’m looking for though unfortunately!

Why not? Who is this one?

[Moonbabyx]

It’s not the John I’m looking for though unfortunately!

Why not? Who is this one?

Well his mums maiden last name was Grey I’m pretty sure and the other John bange, his mothers maiden name was Howie. BUT on a marriage certificate I found for an Annie Grey & James Bange her mothers name was listed as Annie Howie and there was no father. So I’m sufficiently confused now haha.

[Forfarian]

It’s not the John I’m looking for though unfortunately!

Why not? Who is this one?

Well his mums maiden last name was Grey I’m pretty sure and the other John bange, his mothers maiden name was Howie. BUT on a marriage certificate I found for an Annie Grey & James Bange her mothers name was listed as Annie Howie and there was no father. So I’m sufficiently confused now haha.

I'm confused too now. Where did you find John B(e)ang(e) with mother's name Howie?

It's not all that rare to come across that sort of confusion, when a grandmother's name is given instead of a mother's. Also, if Annie Gray/Grey's father's name was not listed on her marriage certificate, she may have used her mother's surname at some point.

John Bange, mother's maiden surname Gray, died in Perth in 1974 aged 92. If that death certificate lists his wives as Henrietta Edwards and/or Ellen Carter, I think that would sort out the confusion. But as it's less than 50 years ago you may have to buy the certificate. Alternatively, wait until 1974 deaths are released in 2025. Or appeal here on RC for someone who is going to the Scotland's People Centre to look it up and transcribe the details for you.

[Forfarian]

Excerpt from the minutes of the Glenbervie Kirk Session.

7 March 1852 .... appeared Ann Howie from Tannachie, and stated that she had born a child in fornication about four months ago, and that James Gray, lately farmservant at Blairerno, was the father thereof, and who had left this neighbourhood - and she was unable to tell whither he had gone or where he might be found. She was admitted to discipline, and being solemnly rebuked and exhorted to repentance was absolved from the scandal. [National Records of Scotland CH2/1150/3/165]

Tannachie and Blairerno are quite close together.
See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.94526&lon=-2.35527&layers=5&b=1

In the 1851 census there are several households of Howies at Tannachie in Glenbervie
(1) David Howie, 62, blacksmith, born Fordoun; wife Elizabeth,62; daughter Hellen, 29, son Joseph, 15, grandson David Smith, 9. All but Davis Smith born Fordoun.
(2) William Howie, 29, Blacksmith journeyman, born Fordoun; wife Mary, 29 and son David, 3.
(3) John Howie, 23, born Fordoun; wife Margaret, 25 and son Robert, 5

In 1841, at Tannachie, are David Howie, 50; Bettie, 50; Ann, 11; Alexander, 8 and Joseph, 6.

Ann Howie, 21, born Fordoun, is a servant in Drumlithie in 1851
Ann Howie, 30, born Fordoun, is a dairymaid at Balfeigh, Fordoun, in 1861
Ann Howie, 39, born Fordoun, is housekeeper at East Tullo, Garvock, in 1871
Ann Howie, 50, born Fordoun, is housekeeper at Bridgemill, Marykirk, in 1881
Ann Howie, 57, born Fordoun, is housekeeper at Bridgend, Marykirk, in 1891
Ann Howie, 66, mmn Tavendale, died in Montrose in 1899.

The only Howie baptism in the Fordoun parish register with mother T*vendale is William, son of David Howie and Eliza Tevendale in 1821, which is an exact match for the age of William in Tannachie in 1851.

Helen Howie, mmn Tavendale, died in Glenbervie in 1858, aged 39
William Howie, mmn Tevendale, died in Glenbervie in 1883, aged 62
Joseph Howie, mmn Tavendale, died in Glenbervie in 1915 aged 77

So I think the inescapable conclusion is that Ann Howie, mother of James Gray's illegitimate daughter Ann, was the daughter of David Howie and Elizabeth T*vendal*.

David Howie, mmn Nicol, died in Glenbervie in 1874 aged 87
Elizabeth T*vendale or Howie, mmn Watson, died in Glenbervie in 1855 aged 66.

[Moonbabyx]

It’s not the John I’m looking for though unfortunately!

Why not? Who is this one?

Well his mums maiden last name was Grey I’m pretty sure and the other John bange, his mothers maiden name was Howie. BUT on a marriage certificate I found for an Annie Grey & James Bange her mothers name was listed as Annie Howie and there was no father. So I’m sufficiently confused now haha.

I'm confused too now. Where did you find John B(e)ang(e) with mother's name Howie?

It's not all that rare to come across that sort of confusion, when a grandmother's name is given instead of a mother's. Also, if Annie Gray/Grey's father's name was not listed on her marriage certificate, she may have used her mother's surname at some point.

John Bange, mother's maiden surname Gray, died in Perth in 1974 aged 92. If that death certificate lists his wives as Henrietta Edwards and/or Ellen Carter, I think that would sort out the confusion. But as it's less than 50 years ago you may have to buy the certificate. Alternatively, wait until 1974 deaths are released in 2025. Or appeal here on RC for someone who is going to the Scotland's People Centre to look it up and transcribe the details for you.

I actually have that death certificate! I just got it in the mail. It says John Bange, he was a builders watchman. He was widowed and his wife’s maiden name was Nell.
He lived in Aberfeldy (I think that’s what it says), his fathers name was James Bange and mothers name was Annie Bange (Gray). The informants name is Thomas Bange - nephew.

[Forfarian]

I actually have that death certificate! I just got it in the mail. It says John Bange, he was a builders watchman. He was widowed and his wife’s maiden name was Nell.

Nell is a variant of Helen/Ellen. Does it not give her maiden surname?

He lived in Aberfeldy (I think that’s what it says), his fathers name was James Bange and mothers name was Annie Bange (Gray). The informants name is Thomas Bange - nephew.

So where did you come across the reference to his mother's surname being Howie?

[GR2]

Having looked at the 1901 census for Angus and Dundee on ScotlandsPeople, searching for all Johns with a surname beginning with B, It is clear that the father is John Bange the soldier. There is no other John Bange and no others with a name close enough.

He was in the right place at the right time (there are references in the newspapers at the time the child was conceived to his regiment being in Montrose and the census shows him there).

The fact that he left the country before the child was actually born and did not return until 1912 will account for him being listed as deceased on the school document.

The soldier's parents are given as James Bange and Annie in his service papers and this, together with his age and birthplace on the 1901 census, makes it clear that Annie was Annie Gray.

I will send you a personal message so that you can get a copy of the service record.