Author Topic: JOHN BANGE  (Read 718 times)

Offline Moonbabyx

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 14 May 22 01:05 BST (UK) »
Having looked at the 1901 census for Angus and Dundee on ScotlandsPeople, searching for all Johns with a surname beginning with B, It is clear that the father is John Bange the soldier. There is no other John Bange and no others with a name close enough.

He was in the right place at the right time (there are references in the newspapers at the time the child was conceived to his regiment being in Montrose and the census shows him there).

The fact that he left the country before the child was actually born and did not return until 1912 will account for him being listed as deceased on the school document.

The soldier's parents are given as James Bange and Annie in his service papers and this, together with his age and birthplace on the 1901 census, makes it clear that Annie was Annie Gray.

I will send you a personal message so that you can get a copy of the service record.

Thank you so much for all of this help!

Offline Moonbabyx

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 14 May 22 01:12 BST (UK) »
I actually have that death certificate! I just got it in the mail. It says John Bange, he was a builders watchman. He was widowed and his wife’s maiden name was Nell.
Nell is a variant of Helen/Ellen. Does it not give her maiden surname?

Quote
He lived in Aberfeldy (I think that’s what it says), his fathers name was James Bange and mothers name was Annie Bange (Gray). The informants name is Thomas Bange - nephew.
So where did you come across the reference to his mother's surname being Howie?

On the marriage certificate between a John bange and Henrietta edwards, it has his parents listed at James Bange and Annie Bange (Howie).

Offline Neale1961

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 14 May 22 07:37 BST (UK) »
John Bange had a younger sister named Jeannie born in 1894.
She also has mother’s name as Annie Howie on her death certificate in 1944 (USA )
And a brother Charles Bange born 1890, records his mother’s name as Howie on his death in 1974
So Annie Gray’s other name, Howie, was known in the family.

This is her Baptism
GRAY   ANN     F   08/03/1852   261/    20 91   Glenbervie
Parents: JAMES GRAY  /  ANN HOWIE   

______________________
Following on from Forfarian’s  Reply #23

Ann Howie in 1841 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344cfe9379091b12a8573/ann-howie-1841-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

Ann Howie in 1851 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034565e9379091b12cc7e7/ann-howie-1851-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

In 1871 census Ann Gray age 19, is working as a Servant in Gavrock
In 1861 census Ann Gray age 9, boarding with Elizabeth Bruce (nee Howie) in Fordoun

This Elizabeth (Howie) Bruce must be related to Ann Howie’s family.
Elizabeth was born 1819 in Birse, daughter of Robert Howie and Mary Burnett
This is her family in 1841:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344a1e9379091b129d06c/robert-huie-1841-kincardineshire-benholm-1791-?locale=en

Looking at the records - Elizabeth’s father Robert Howie was the brother of David Howie who was father of Ann Howie, grandfather of Ann Gray
Both were sons of Robert Howie and Ann Nicol who married 20 Nov 1784 in Fordoun

Baptisms of children of Robert Howie / Huie and Ann Nicol
•   Elizabeth 1785
•   Robert 1787
•   David 1789
•   Mary 1791
•   Helen 1795
It looks as if the father Robert may have died in 1795 Fordoun, age 38
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline Moonbabyx

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 14 May 22 07:53 BST (UK) »
John Bange had a younger sister named Jeannie born in 1894.
She also has mother’s name as Annie Howie on her death certificate in 1944 (USA )
And a brother Charles Bange born 1890, records his mother’s name as Howie on his death in 1974
So Annie’s Gray’s other name, Howie, was known in the family.

This is her Baptism
GRAY   ANN     F   08/03/1852   261/    20 91   Glenbervie
Parents: JAMES GRAY  /  ANN HOWIE   

______________________
Following on from Forfarian’s  Reply #23

Ann Howie in 1841 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344cfe9379091b12a8573/ann-howie-1841-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

Ann Howie in 1851 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034565e9379091b12cc7e7/ann-howie-1851-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

In 1871 census Ann Gray age 19, is working as a Servant in Gavrock
In 1861 census Ann Gray age 9, boarding with Elizabeth Bruce (nee Howie) in Fordoun

This Elizabeth (Howie) Bruce must be related to Ann Howie’s family.
Elizabeth was born 1819 in Birse, daughter of Robert Howie and Mary Burnett
This is her family in 1841:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344a1e9379091b129d06c/robert-huie-1841-kincardineshire-benholm-1791-?locale=en

Looking at the records - Elizabeth’s father Robert Howie was the brother of David Howie who was father of Ann Howie, grandfather of Ann Gray
Both were sons of Robert Howie and Ann Nicol who married 20 Nov 1784 in Fordoun

Baptisms of children of Robert Howie / Huie and Ann Nicol
•   Elizabeth 1785
•   Robert 1787
•   David 1789
•   Mary 1791
•   Helen 1795
It looks as if the father Robert may have died in 1795 Fordoun, age 38

Wow! Okay so the Annie Gray is the same as the Annie Howie then? Thank you so much for looking all of this up for me!


Offline Neale1961

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 14 May 22 08:13 BST (UK) »
You are welcome.
As Ann Howie never married, and did not die until 1899, it is quite probable that she was in contact with the Bange family.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 14 May 22 09:01 BST (UK) »
Wow! Okay so the Annie Gray is the same as the Annie Howie then?
No. Annie Howie is the mother of Annie Gray.

No doubt there was some misunderstanding at the registrar's when John came to register his marriage to Henrietta Edwards.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Moonbabyx

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 14 May 22 09:38 BST (UK) »
Wow! Okay so the Annie Gray is the same as the Annie Howie then?
No. Annie Howie is the mother of Annie Gray.

No doubt there was some misunderstanding at the registrar's when John came to register his marriage to Henrietta Edwards.

Ohhhh right okay!

Offline Neale1961

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 14 May 22 09:49 BST (UK) »
I wonder if the confusion is because Annie Gray, never knew her father, and only her mother Annie Howie. She does not seem to have had contact with the Gray family at all. Although baptised with the surname Gray, Annie may have thought of herself as a “Howie”.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: JOHN BANGE
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 14 May 22 10:21 BST (UK) »
As Annie Gray was illegitimate, she may also have been known as Annie Howie.

Finding her father is likely to prove impossible. Annie Gray was born about November 1851, so he must have been at Blairerno in the early months of 1851. However he is not enumerated in the household there in the 1851 census, which means that he had moved on before 30 March 1851.

FreeCEN returns 263 James Grays aged 18 to 38.

Of these, 89 are sons living with one or both parents, who can probably be discounted because Annie Howie would surely have known where James Gray's family were, and would have told the Kirk Session.

That only leaves 174 possibles. Many could be eliminated by looking to see if they were married. If so, then Annie Howie's sin was adultery, not fornication, and the Kirk Session would have taken an even dimmer view of the event.

You could probably narrow it down to a couple of dozen likely candidates by eliminating those with incompatible occupations.



Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.