Thomas McDermott 1855

[LouMcD]

Hi, I'd be really grateful if anyone is able to help me, I'm at a complete dead end! I'm trying to trace the birth of Thomas McDermott, born c.1855 in either Westport, County Mayo or Manchester, Lancashire. He died 1929 in Chelsea.

Thomas married Susan Rolfe (1865-1940) in January 1886 in Woolwich and they had the following children:
Thomas Francis (1886-1933)
William (1888-1961)
Edith Mary (1890-?)
James Herbert (1893-1896)
Arthur (1894-1914)
Evelyn Maud (1903-1974)

Thomas and Susan's marriage cert gives fathers details as John McDermott, retired Mariner.

He joined the army in 1879 at Portsmouth and gave his place of birth as Westport, County Mayo and his next of kin as father, John in Manchester, Lancashire. There is a reference below with is unclear but i think it says Brothers, none.

I've found him in 1881, training at shoebury, but his age here would give a date of birth around 1852. Place of birth Ireland.

No census for 1891 as he'd have been posted to Malta then.

In 1901, Thomas and family were living in Plumstead, birth here is 1857, Ireland.

They were still living in Plumstead in 1911 but here he gives his place of birth as Manchester, Lancashire. Date around 1856.

He again gives his place of birth as Manchester in the 1921 census, born in 1855.

He gave his religion on his attestation papers as catholic. I've trawled through the baptism records for what i think is the correct church in westport (it's not transcribed and a lot is hard to decipher) but i can't find any McDermott births around that time.

There is a Thomas McDermott birth in Manchester in 1855 - i ordered it but father was Charles, cotton factory worker.

If anyone has any suggestions of where to search next, that would be great.

Thanks!

[Neale1961]

Who are the witnesses to the McDermott- Rolfe marriage in 1886?
Have you looked into their relationship to Thomas.

[Rosinish]

Don't forget possible variants for the surname!

However...

"Thomas married Susan Rolfe (1865-1940) in January 1886 in Woolwich and they had the following children:
Thomas Francis (1886-1933)
William (1888-1961)
Edith Mary (1890-?)
James Herbert (1893-1896)
Arthur (1894-1914)
Evelyn Maud (1903-1974)"

It's rather odd there's no son named John or a son with a middle name John after his 'father' which may indicate he was illegitimate?

Are you able to work out names of the children relating to the Rolfe side of the family which may help narrow down the possibility of his mothers' name at least (usually 2nd daughter) although not always?

Annie

[LouMcD]

Thanks for your reply Neale1961. The witnesses were E McCabe and what i think says EHL James.

McCabe and James are not names I've been able to link to Susan's side of the family so they could possibly be Thomas' relations, or perhaps they were just friends.

I've found baptisms for 2 of Thomas and Susans children and the god parents were John Burns, Mary Harden and Catherine Christie. I haven't been able to link any of those names to the family either!

[LouMcD]

I suspect you're right Annie, and Thomas was actually illegitimate.

Good shout about the children's names. Susan's parents were Greenfield and Elizabeth, so they don't seem to have followed a naming convention. But Susan was 1 of 10 children, and her eldest and youngest brothers were William and Arthur, so perhaps those names were from the Rolfe side? None of the other names seem to feature in the Rolfe family.

[aghadowey]

Not everyone followed a naming pattern and this is especially true when people left Ireland and started broadening the names used. I can't see that you can guess at illegitimacy from the small bit of information, or lack of information, you have so far.

This would be the Catholic parish for Westport but if you've already searched and haven't found anything it would be a good idea to look in adjoining parishes. Often the further a person moved from home the less precise is the location they give for their birthplace and sometimes name the nearest town or city.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1043

[LouMcD]

Thanks aghadowey. That was the one I'd looked through. There are many pages that are completely illegible and not all the records are in correct date order, so there's a chance that he's there and i can't read it. but i can't find any McDermotts listed at all in the parish records around that time, even as godparents.

I'll take your advice and look at adjoining parishes, see if i can find anything nearby.

[Darnity]

He joined the army in 1879 at Portsmouth and gave his place of birth as Westport, County Mayo and his next of kin as father, John in Manchester, Lancashire. There is a reference below with is unclear but i think it says Brothers, none.

I've found him in 1881, training at shoebury, but his age here would give a date of birth around 1852. Place of birth Ireland.

No census for 1891 as he'd have been posted to Malta then.

In 1901, Thomas and family were living in Plumstead, birth here is 1857, Ireland.

They were still living in Plumstead in 1911 but here he gives his place of birth as Manchester, Lancashire. Date around 1856.

He again gives his place of birth as Manchester in the 1921 census, born in 1855.


I think you are making an assumption that it is always HE who fills in the census and other forms - even if he is head of the household.

And at that time people didn't always know their exact date of birth so fluctuations in years isn't uncommon.

He joined the army in 1879 at Portsmouth and gave his place of birth as Westport, County Mayo - it will be him providing the information to join the army so Westport as his pob looks good, although it may be the first place he can remember living rather than his exact pob

I've found him in 1881, training at shoebury, but his age here would give a date of birth around 1852. Place of birth Ireland. - again we have Ireland as pob and I'd expect it to be him providing the information

In 1901, Thomas and family were living in Plumstead, birth here is 1857, Ireland. I think he gave the info for this census

They were still living in Plumstead in 1911 but here he gives his place of birth as Manchester, Lancashire. Date around 1856. Does he sign the form? Does the writing look the same as whoever filled in the form? Maybe his wife or one of the children filled in the form and he signed it without checking it - maybe his reading skills weren't very good but he could sign his name.

The fact that his pob is now Manchester makes me think it is his wife or one of the children who has put down his pob as Manchester, a place they know or had been told his father lived and it wasn't HIM providing the information.

He again gives his place of birth as Manchester in the 1921 census, born in 1855. Again, does it look like HE filled in the form or might it have been another family member?

He died 1929 in Chelsea. Who is the informant? What age have they provided for him? Information on a  death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the person providing it.

Thomas and Susan's marriage cert gives fathers details as John McDermott, retired Mariner. So in 1886 he is claiming his father is John but not deceased? Are there any John McDermotts in Manchester in 1851/1861/1871/1881 who might be this father? Have you found a possible Thomas on the 1861 or 1871 census yet?

Just some things for you to revisit and think about. Hope it helps.