Genoa, Italy

[WayneSwansea]

Hi Steve,

I'm a new member here, so hopefully I'm posting in the right place.

I've just started looking into my family tree and there is a gentleman on my dad's side of the family by the name of Richard Johnson.  He was born in Genoa, Italy, and settled in Swansea, Wales, where he met his wife, Jane Cornelius (born 1845) and they had a daughter, Catherine Johnson (1883 - 1959).  However, his birth date appears to vary.  1891, 1901 and 1911 census have his birth year as 1835, but his marriage cert says 1839.

1891 census says he was a sailor (mercht service)
1901 census says he was a seaman
1911 census says he was an able seaman

Marriage cert says he was a mariner and that his father's name was Baptiste Johnson, who was deceased at the time of writing (1881) and was apparently a farmer.

I can find Richard Johnson on swanseamariners.org.uk and again, his birth date varies greatly.  I can't find out any info on the Tocapilla, which was the first ship I can see he boarded.

So I'm at a bit of a loose end, so was wondering whether there is any information on Richard or Baptiste that you'd be able to dig up in Italy.  Interestingly, I can't find any census info on Richard before 1891, so I'm thinking maybe he arrived between 1881 and 1891.

Happy to do the research myself, if maybe you could point me in the right direction.

Thanks.

[TreeSpirit]

(I'm not sure who Steve is)

For the years 1868/69/70, the Tocopilla had Swansea/S.America as Port of Survey/Destined Voyage. I can’t see any crew lists for her, but I’m wondering whether Richard might have been on the following 1869/70 voyage to Bolivia: https://www.facebook.com/Ilfracombesoldcodgers/posts/1536305046566164

You’ve mentioned that “he arrived between 1881 and 1891”, but don’t those crew lists place him in Swansea from at least early 1871 onwards. And, there might be an easy explanation why he’s not mentioned in the 1871 and 1881 census … He could have been on a ship away from the UK.

Finally, I’m fairly sure that “Richard Johnson” is not a very Italian name. If he’d anglicized his surname I’d assume it would have been something like Giovanni.
So based on this, a guy in the 1861 census caught my eye. I’m not saying that the following person is definitely him, but he is a possibility:
England and Wales Census, 1861
Name: Sardi Giovanni
Sex: Male
Age: 23
Event Date: 1861
Event Place (Original): St Mary, Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
Registration District: Cardiff
Residence Note: Frederica Street
Birth Year (Estimated): 1838
Birthplace: Italy
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Mariner
Relationship to Head of Household: Lodger
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7BZ-KVN

[WayneSwansea]

Hi TreeSpirit,

Steve was some guy who said he was happy to help anyone with Italian research, but I believe a moderator has moved my post.

Sorry, you're right, the swanseamariner details do put him in Swansea, or at least back and forth on ships, from 1871.

Thank you for that link.  I did see that some time ago but couldn't find it again when I searched recently.  I guess I'll have to look into getting a hold of crew lists if any are available.

Regarding an anglicised name, he lists his dad as being "Baptiste Johnson" on his marriage cert.  Is it likely that he anglicised that, also?

Thank you for taking the time to help.  Much appreciated

[TreeSpirit]

Regarding an anglicised name, he lists his dad as being "Baptiste Johnson" on his marriage cert.  Is it likely that he anglicised that, also?

I have seen Baptiste as an Italian first name on e.g. Family Search, but also the variations Battiste or Battista. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptiste_(name)).

Because Giovanni is an Italian version of John, I'm hopeful that the original surname would have been something like that, but other variations are also possible. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_(given_name))

Note: There is a chance that their original names were something totally different, but I'm more used to seeing names adapted or translated.

[WayneSwansea]

My Italian isn't great, but I'm guessing a direct translation is Riccardo Digiovanni, so looking for that or some similar translation in a suitable time period would be sensible?

Is/was it common for Italians to include the father's name in their name at all?

[steve62]

Hi,
 I am the "Steve" who lives in Italy and have a posting "Italian Research".  Have be held up because of the covid situation and then afterwards I found that a lot of Comune "Town Halls" were not replying or requiring payment or asking why I was making enquiries and requiring I.D by way of Identity Card or Passport. 
I am still here to help if possible and or translate any documents that are written in italian.

Steve

[manukarik]

Had a look through the Genova archives but not come up with anything yet. Looked both for Richard Johnson and Riccardo Di Giovanni.

I did note that there was a Richard Johnson who married somewhere between 1871 and 1875 in Genoa and is recorded in the Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Banns And Marriages Record Set of the GRO Consular Marriages.

[steve62]

Hi,
Out at the moment.  Will get back to you tomorrow.
Steve

[steve62]

Hi,
First if you break up the surname:
John  -  Son in italian you get Giovanni Figlio which could also mean
..... son of Giovanni.  Was wondering if the surname changed by an ancestor who was the son of Giovanni. Tried differant approaches to the surname to find an italian equivelant.  We do not know when the surname changed - UK or Italy.
Secondly it would be unusual to use a fathers surname as a name.
It is unusual an italian would change his surname  to an english version, unlike eastern europeans.
Problem here is to know the italian surname.
Steve