Author Topic: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL  (Read 2756 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #126 on: Friday 05 August 22 21:50 BST (UK) »
I  am interested in Michael Welch, Elk, Delaware County 1860. He seems to be almost too good to not be John 's brother. I had seen him, but didn't get to follow up


Another thought, would Bridget have married in her own parish at Lisvernane?


If he wasn't a brother he may have been a cousin or other relative, e.g. uncles and nephews might be near in age. Or it may be coincidence.
A woman generally married in her own parish if she was living at home at the time.
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #127 on: Friday 05 August 22 23:18 BST (UK) »

 spoken family lore is that John Welch was said to have been from Maryborough, Queens County. There was also a word in there that looked like "Ballynorman"


Was Ballynorman written by a family member recording spoken memories?
John may have been born in or near Maryborough but how near is open to question.

Registration map browse function on SWilson.Info website
https://www.swilson.info/regdistmap.php 
Maryborough/Portlaoise is in Mountmellick Registration District. Part of the registration district is in Queen's County and part in King's County. Click on Mountmellick for a list of civil parishes in the reg. district + a map.
The town of Maryborough is in Borris civil parish. Click on Borris for list of townlands in the parish. No townland on the list resembles Ballynorman.
Click on names of other civil parishes for list of townlands in each.
An adjacent registration district is Abbeyleix. Ballyroan is a civil parish in that district.
The website has a Townland Database and a Placename Search function with soundex but for names beginning with Bally you'd be there forever.

"Ballynorman" may have been a mishearing or a mis-spelling. Trying to imagine it being spoken, if it was from Irish, "nor" may have been na (of).

Some townlands had/have alternate names. Some townlands contain/ed sub-townlands. I was under the impression that a great-uncle of mine was frequently moving around a parish, judging by the different residences on his children's birth registrations. I now know that the different placenames were all the same place, the official name, the old name and the name of a sub-townland. 

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Offline shanreagh

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #128 on: Friday 05 August 22 23:42 BST (UK) »
Deleted big mess with embedded quotes....see below.

Offline shanreagh

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #129 on: Friday 05 August 22 23:49 BST (UK) »
Goodness Maidenstone what alot of work you have done! Thank you.

Perhaps a little bit more than conjecture as the names of the witnesses to the 1846 marriage were Thomas Hennessy, the name of the father of the Glen O Aherlow Hennessys and donor of the land where the grave yard and church were.  Another witness was Thady Hennessy. Thomas & Bridget Cleary Hennessy had a son called Timothy and Thady is Irish for Timothy.

If they had said 'of this parish' or something similar it would be much more definite.

'21/2/1846
Jeremiah Dwyer to Bridget Hennesy witnessed by Thomas Hennesy and Thady Hennesy
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632715#page/212/mode/1up

Now Thomas Hennessy may be the father (he died 1851 and Thady the brother (Timothy)

This is all supposition so far.'

Re the wording I have seen a Findagrave reference to the grave and this pen picture is written there. 


https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852022/thomas-hennessy

I did do some Walsh searching in Aus and saw a brief ref in Sydney to a Walsh family that could be looked at
I noted, somewhere, that one of the sponsors of the child born in 1862 was a Merrick and that was the married name of a sister who emigrated to Australia.

If we strike and search for other Bridget Hennessys then we possibly lose or weaken the DNA  link back to Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy. 
I don't know enough about DNA, and we have not been advised of the amounts, to know if the amounts showing up for the Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy combination are indicative of direct family or if they could be a link through a brother or sister of Thomas or Bridget Cleary Hennessy. 

I seem to recall  a few Bridget Hennessys to parents other than this Thomas Hennessy and this Bridget Cleary Hennessy. 

Also are the links showing to the Cleary side?
Just had a thought that Thomas Hennessy may have had another daughter named Bridget?  Either during the marriage or after the death of Bridget Cleary or there was a NPE with one of the other daughters?

Also the family seem to be saying that their Bridget was born c1830.  If this is the one who married Jer  Dwyer then she would have been about 16 and a parent would have needed to give consent.
I have seen a margin note sometimes or that may be why Thomas Hennessy was one of the witnesses? 

Is it possible to find out who logged the Findagrave entry and correspond directly with them about the pen portrait of the family that is on the entry? 


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #130 on: Friday 05 August 22 23:54 BST (UK) »
Back to Griffiths' Valuation.
Livarranane townland acreage was 661. Around a third of the land was occupied by a Hennessy or let by one of them to someone. In addition they had tenants in 14 houses and let the constabulary barracks and a quarry. Laurence, Timothy, Patrick, Arthur, John and Michael Hennessy.

I was intrigued that it was Bridget Welch who bought the farm in Iowa and not her husband. If she belonged to the Henessy family of Lissarrravane, she may have used an inheritance or her dowry to buy it.
What was the law on married women owning land in the state then?   
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #131 on: Saturday 06 August 22 00:42 BST (UK) »

Re the wording I have seen a Findagrave reference to the grave and this pen picture is written there. 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852022/thomas-hennessy


I noted, somewhere, that one of the sponsors of the child born in 1862 was a Merrick and that was the married name of a sister who emigrated to Australia.


I seem to recall  a few Bridget Hennessys to parents other than this Thomas Hennessy and this Bridget Cleary Hennessy. 


Also the family seem to be saying that their Bridget was born c1830.  If this is the one who married Jer  Dwyer then she would have been about 16 and a parent would have needed to give consent.
 

Is it possible to find out who logged the Findagrave entry and correspond directly with them about the pen portrait of the family that is on the entry? 


Re the Thomas Hennessy grave. We don't know how much of the information was taken from the gravestone and what was from other sources.

I think I saw a baptism to the Merrick couple but I didn't take a note. It may have been a different couple.

There were Bridget/Biddy Hennessy baptisms in 1823 & 1826 in Galbally & Aherlow parish. Either would have been a suitable age to marry in 1846.  A Bridget Henesy married McArthy in Garbally in 1844; she may have been one of those baptisms.
Typical age of a bride then would be late teens to early twenties. Possibly younger if a man was in a hurry to wed.
If the Bridget Dwyer who died in Bansha district in 1873 was the wife of Jer Dwyer and if her recorded age at death (52) was accurate, then she was born around 1821. That would make her about 41 when Alice, the last known child of her marriage to Jeremiah was born.

I'm fairly certain that Bridget Hennessy who married Jeremiah Dwyer was in Ireland when Bridget Hennessy, wife of John Welch was in Iowa.     

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Offline shanreagh

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #132 on: Saturday 06 August 22 01:36 BST (UK) »
Back to Griffiths' Valuation.
Livarranane townland acreage was 661. Around a third of the land was occupied by a Hennessy or let by one of them to someone. In addition they had tenants in 14 houses and let the constabulary barracks and a quarry. Laurence, Timothy, Patrick, Arthur, John and Michael Hennessy.

I was intrigued that it was Bridget Welch who bought the farm in Iowa and not her husband. If she belonged to the Henessy family of Lissarrravane, she may have used an inheritance or her dowry to buy it.
What was the law on married women owning land in the state then?

Yes I had the thought that these Hennessy's were a fairly wealthy family.  So it did not surprise me that Bridget bought the land.  I think I read further back that only naturalised citizens could buy land and only males were required to be naturalised so that was how Bridget was able to buy the land.

The query is why was John Walsh/Welch not able to buy and this may be linked to not being naturalised and why was he not naturalised? 

I am not sure about what evidence had to be provided in those days as to identification. If he was the 'international man of mystery' as my mother referred to her grandfather (he who for some reason said he was an only child see further up the thread) then he may not have been able to provide this.

Some links below provide the process.
Thoughts
John Walsh may not have been in the country long enough to start the process, let alone complete it. .
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/federal/naturalization-process-in-u-s-early-history/

A potential citizen could go to any court of record after two years residency in the U.S. and file a declaration of intent to become a citizen. Then after three more years the immigrant could seek naturalization papers to complete the process.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/United_States_Naturalization_and_Citizenship

Do Deb or lillibelle have information on the land purchase please.  Title deeds or application forms?

have we looked for John Walsh becoming naturalised? 

Yes I agree that the Bridget/Jer Dwyer is not our Iowa Bridget but the question is how does the Iowa Bridget link to Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy?

Is the Cleary side showing in the DNA or just the Hennessy side? 

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #133 on: Saturday 06 August 22 02:35 BST (UK) »

Yes I had the thought that these Hennessy's were a fairly wealthy family.  So it did not surprise me that Bridget bought the land. 
 

I looked for Hennessy wills.
Calendars of Wills and Administrations 1858-1920
www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie
Too late for Thomas Hennessy who died in 1851.
Timothy Hennessy of Lisvernane, Co. Tipperary, farmer; died 5th March 1905. Probate granted to Christopher Lee, teacher. Effects £238
Timothy Hennessy of Lisvernane, Co. Tipperary, died 24th April 1909. Probate granted to Ellen, his widow. Effects £448.

I also checked for Jeremiah Dwyer wills. Didn't find one for Bridget Hennessy's husband.
 These Jeremiah Dwyers weren't short of money:
1867 of Ruane (Bansha). Legatees another Jeremiah and Edmond. Effects under £450. (£450 was a tax threshhold; next one was £600.)
1907 Effects over £1000. He was the same Jeremiah whose marriage I found to a daughter of another Jeremiah Dwyer.
By contrast, my small farmers in Mayo left the grand sums of £25 and £7. Tipperary has better land.
Cowban

Online Lisa in California

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Re: DNA & STILL A BRICK WALL
« Reply #134 on: Saturday 06 August 22 02:46 BST (UK) »

have we looked for John Walsh becoming naturalised? 

Of course I could have missed it, but Iíve searched for any and all records for John Welch which typically included Walsh.  I will look again tonight using just the Walsh spelling.

There are quite a few naturalization records for other U.S. states but Iowa had very few or none - I donít remember now.


The query is why was John Walsh/Welch not able to buy and this may be linked to not being naturalised and why was he not naturalised? 

Our house was built much later than the time frame for the Welch family (1930), but maybe this could be a reason?

We were told by the descendant of the man who built the house, letís say ďPatrickĒ, that Patrickís wife homesteaded the property.  (Patrick and his wife were born in America.)  I believe that we were told that Patrick was ill at the time which is why Mrs. Patrick had the land and structures in her name.  Whether that is true has not been confirmed.
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