trying to find John Yates

[Mabel Bagshawe]

I'm wondering if we are 'chasing' two John Yates.

Ladyhawk posted this death

Would this be his death entry?

YATES, JOHN    age    28
GRO Reference: 1870  S Quarter in FARNHAM  Volume 02A  Page 73

Edward's birth record:-

YATES, EDWARD  JOHN     WHITE 
GRO Reference: 1871  D Quarter in BLACKBURN  Volume 08E  Page 372

I see from the brief details on Deceased Online that John was buried on 24th September 1870.

Is it possible for a child to be born, in theory, more than a year after the father's death?

What do others think?

The details from the marriage and death notices seem too similar for them to be different people I think.

It's possible that John Yates isn't Edward's father - we don;t know where Mary was when John died (no mention of any family in the death notice) or if they're still together. Mary heading off to friends in Blackburn for support is interesting

[SummerCrush]

Welcome to Rootschat Summer 

You have this information on your post:-

John Yates{I don't know when he was born but we know he was deceased in April 1871 due to the census records}.

Where did the information about John being deceased come from?  The 1871 census was taken on 2 April 1871.  If he died after that date then, in theory, he and his wife should be on the 1871 census.  Where is John most likely to have died?

What was John's occupation at the time of his marriage?

he was in the 6th foot regiment we believe when John Married Mary Ann White{he is also listed as being in the 6th foot regiment as a Staff Sergeant as his job profession despite being deceased when his son Edward John Yates married his wife Mary Jane Aykroyd in 1896}

[SummerCrush]

I'm wondering if we are 'chasing' two John Yates.

Ladyhawk posted this death

Would this be his death entry?

YATES, JOHN    age    28
GRO Reference: 1870  S Quarter in FARNHAM  Volume 02A  Page 73

Edward's birth record:-

YATES, EDWARD  JOHN     WHITE 
GRO Reference: 1871  D Quarter in BLACKBURN  Volume 08E  Page 372

I see from the brief details on Deceased Online that John was buried on 24th September 1870.

Is it possible for a child to be born, in theory, more than a year after the father's death?

What do others think?

The details from the marriage and death notices seem too similar for them to be different people I think.

It's possible that John Yates isn't Edward's father - we don;t know where Mary was when John died (no mention of any family in the death notice) or if they're still together. Mary heading off to friends in Blackburn for support is interesting

the guy John Yates being buried in 1870 I believe we ruled out due to the age on the death record as Mary Ann White's first week of pregnancy would have been 1st week of March 1871 if Edward was born at 40 weeks in November 1871 so Mary Ann and John must have slept together either end of January or by beginning of February to give her 4+ plus weeks to find out she was pregnant. but John Yates is definitely listed as Edward's father on the original, original copy of the birth certificate and his Baptism certificate which I've been given by the last surviving daughter of Ida Yates{Ida was Edward John Yates daughter}.

2: Mary Ann White was living in Blackburn after she got married in Bridgwater, Somerset{this could be due to John being in the Army} but she does appear as a widow on the 1871 census visiting her cousin Caroline Kirk in Cheetham Manchester in April 1871 and is this is when she is listed as a widow but when Mary Ann White re-marries a Quebec, Canada man called Walter Herbert Beil or Bell in 1875 she is living in Bacup, Lancashire until she dies sometime between 1900 - 1910

[SummerCrush]

this might help with his age - record itself is on Fold 3 which I don;t have access to (Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920)

Name:    John Yates
Enlistment Year:    1864
Enlistment Age:    20
Birth Place:    Blackburn, Lancaster

Not sure if this might be the same person record can be viewed on F M P

John YATES
Attestation corps 100th Foot
Discharge corps 100th Foot
Birth year 1844 Blackburn[/b]
Series Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Service number 103
Regiment 100th Foot
Record set British Army Service Records
Attestation date 24 Mar 1864
Attestation age years 20
Attestation service number 103

next of kin father William
but his Military History Sheet has dates from 26th March 1864 to 7 July 1885

Edit to add Snap Girl Guide posting whilst red writing 

I don't think this is him either because the John Yates i need died in 1871 and that military record going to 1885 would be impossible{as it would mean he was still serving up until 1885}

[SummerCrush]

So how/why does Mary Ann end up in Blackburn? Presumably she knows or is related to Caroline Kirk, also from Bridgwater, with whom she's staying in 1871

Just to confirm that, Caroline Kirk is on 1861 with her married sister Ellen Drewett. One of the witnesses to John Drewett and Ellen Kirk's marriage is Mary Ann White

Caroline herself has two children before she's married.

Caroline Kirk was Mary Ann White's cousin. we think John Yates was in the military and that was where he was based hence the move from Somerset to Blackburn.

but Mary Ann White disappears totally off all the census's from 1871 when she is picked up visiting her cousin Caroline in Cheetham, Manchester until she is picked up on a census in in 1891 living with her new husband Walter Herbert Beil or Bell{they're marriage certificate states Bell surname but the children they had together were given surname Beil} but Edward's name is changed on the census to Edward I.Y and then changed again to Edward E. J on another census after that

[Ladyhawk]

the guy John Yates being buried in 1870 I believe we ruled out due to the age on the death record

Did you purchase the 1870 death record? If so, who was the informant?

[SummerCrush]

If this is him, there is a timing problem for the son... but it does match the occupation as given in the marriage snip that Daisypetal posted...

From Leicester Chronicle 08 October 1870

Edited to add: the burial for this fellow at Aldershot Military Burial Ground, Hampshire states he was a Divisional Staff Sargeant, and age 28 (not 29 as the newspapers says).

I don't think this is the right John Yates as it would mean there is no way John could be Edwards father.

[Ladyhawk]

If this is him, there is a timing problem for the son... but it does match the occupation as given in the marriage snip that Daisypetal posted...

From Leicester Chronicle 08 October 1870

Edited to add: the burial for this fellow at Aldershot Military Burial Ground, Hampshire states he was a Divisional Staff Sargeant, and age 28 (not 29 as the newspapers says).

I don't think this is the right John Yates as it would mean there is no way John could be Edwards father.

A  few similarities though??? Are there two John Yates whose occupation is a Clerk 

It maybe a possibility to consider that Mary Ann became pregnant after the death of her husband John Yates and entered his details on the birth certificate of her son Edward and giving him the middle name of John 

EDIT to add - I have been looking but have not found a William YATES occ Hosier on a census

ADDED - Is it possible that Walton H Bell (Beil) born Quebec Canada might be his father his occupation Book keeper CLERK (unemployed) on 1881 census - Do you know where Walton was living in 1871?

[SummerCrush]

If this is him, there is a timing problem for the son... but it does match the occupation as given in the marriage snip that Daisypetal posted...

From Leicester Chronicle 08 October 1870

Edited to add: the burial for this fellow at Aldershot Military Burial Ground, Hampshire states he was a Divisional Staff Sargeant, and age 28 (not 29 as the newspapers says).

I don't think this is the right John Yates as it would mean there is no way John could be Edwards father.

A  few similarities though??? Are there two John Yates whose occupation is a Clerk 

It maybe a possibility to consider that Mary Ann became pregnant after the death of her husband John Yates and entered his details on the birth certificate of her son Edward and giving him the middle name of John 

EDIT to add - I have been looking but have not found a William YATES occ Hosier on a census

ADDED - Is it possible that Walton H Bell (Beil) born Quebec Canada might be his father his occupation Book keeper CLERK (unemployed) on 1881 census - Do you know where Walton was living in 1871?

well on the original, original copies of Edward's marriage certificate to Mary Jane Aykroyd and Edward's Birth Certificate John is definitely listed as a Staff Sergeant Soldier in the 6th Foot Regiment so I have NO clue other than that and William's Job {John's father is definitely listed as a Hosia}

I have no clue where Walter was living before he married Mary Ann White in 1875 in Blackburn, Lancashire but we know when Mary Ann White died sometime between 1900 - 1910 she was living in Bacup, Lancashire.