Author Topic: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help  (Read 1405 times)

Offline Jason Jase

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Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« on: Saturday 20 August 22 17:47 BST (UK) »
Well after re-examining my family tree I stared around a year ago I looked and my 2x great grandparents.

I realized I was missing a lot of information and something seemed Very wrong with what I had down for Alice Cresswell's family and would like help clearing it up... I started with a little information that led to other tree's on "Ancestry" which seemed to turn into a copy and paste fest with no proof... I got caught up in that and moved on up my tree.

I am looking for mostly Alice's family and information on when she was actually living with Henry.
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Facts I have that I know are true
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Henry Whiteman
Born   About 1852 in Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Died   JAN 1911 • Belper, Derbyshire, England
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He was a coal miner by the age of 10
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Henry Whiteman's parents (I had another post on the Beginners board about them)
Thomas Whiteman (He is still a brickwall but one thing at a time)
Marry Ann Inger (She went by Ann which made it hard to find her in the records)
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I have Henry's Sibling and don't want to focus on them here.
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Missing census
I have the 1861,1881 and the 1901 census for him.  I am missing the 1871 and 1891 census

1861 Census
Name   Henry Whiteman
Age   10
Estimated Birth Year   1851
Relation   Son
Father's Name   Thomas Whiteman
Mother's Name   Ann Whiteman
Gender   Male
Where born   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Civil parish   Heanor
County/Island   Derbyshire
Country   England
Registration district   Basford
Sub-registration district   Ilkestone
ED, institution, or vessel   4
Neighbours   View others on page
Household schedule number   173
Piece   2435
Folio   80
Page number   34
--------------------
missing all information on him between the census's 1871????
-------------------
1881 Census he is living with only his mom
Name   Henry Whiteman
Age   23
Estimated Birth Year   1858
Relationship to Head   Son
Mother   Ann Whiteman
Gender   Male
Where born   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Civil parish   Heanor
County/Island   Derbyshire
Country   England
Street Address   N-word Row Private
Occupation   Coal Miner
Registration district   Basford
ED, institution, or vessel   2
Neighbours   View others on page
Piece   3324
Folio   56
Page number   44
-----------------------------------
Henry Married Alice (M) Cresswell in 1883-ish
Registration Year   1883
Registration Quarter   Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district   Nottingham
Inferred County   Nottinghamshire
Volume   7b
Page   506
Records on Page   5
----------------    -------------------
11 DEC 1885  Alice and Henry had a Son my Great Grandfather
Frederick Whiteman
Name: WHITEMAN, FREDERICK    Mother's Maiden Surname:  CRESSWELL 
GRO Reference: 1886  M Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 645
----------------    -------------------

In 20 Nov 1887 Alice and Henry had a Daughter
Name: WHITEMAN, ETHEL  MAY,   Mother's Maiden Surname: CRESSWELL 
GRO Reference: 1887  D Quarter in NOTTINGHAM  Volume 07B  Page 380
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1891 census is missing????
----------------    -------------------
In 1891(exact birthday ???) Alice and Henry had a Daughter
Eliza Whiteman Whiteman was born
Name: WEIGHTMAN, ELIZA    Mother's Maiden Surname: CRESSWELL
GRO Reference: 1891  D Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 558
----------------    -------------------



-----------------------------------
In 1901 Census he is living with Alice his three kids and one of his sisters (who most people have the wrong spouse for an Ancestry)
Name   Henry Whiteman
Age   49
Estimated Birth Year   1852
Relation to Head   Head
Gender   Male
Spouse   Alice Whiteman
Birth Place   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Civil parish   Smalley
Ecclesiastical parish   Smalley St John the Baptist
Town   Smalley
County/Island   Derbyshire
Country   England
Registration district   Belper
Sub-registration district   Horsley
ED, institution, or vessel   12
Neighbours   View others on page
Piece   3227
Folio   176
Page number   30
Household schedule number   176
------------------------------------------------
What Henry did between 1901 and 1911???
Henry Died in JAN 1911 • Belper, Derbyshire, England. (exact date unknown) So he likely isn't in the 1911 census

See post two for Alice Cresswell problem...






   



   

Offline Jason Jase

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 20 August 22 18:13 BST (UK) »
Alice Cresswell
What I have for Alice Cresswell is
She was born 20 Oct 1854 but on the GRO I found
_CRESSWELL, ALICE  Mother's maiden name_ RIDE  GRO Reference_ 1853  D Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 375
only this Alice Cresswell born in 1853 a year earlier...(It would make sense to be the same or year later or was the GRO reg created a lot later???)

Alice Whiteman Nee Cresswell died 6 SEP 1942 • Shardlow, Derbyshire, England?

I think this is the right Alice that married my Henry???

A lot of people had my Alice's mother being Mary Ann Fletcher 1829 • Longham, Leicestershire, England
which I don't think is true.

I think Alice's mom is Esther Ride 19 OCT 1823 • Belper, Derbyshire, England???


on all the Family trees I have seen online have her with a father
George Henry Cresswell
I think
born 1825 St Peter, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
died Dec 1913 Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England.

I am not sure if a couple of George Cresswell's got mashed together  or he had a few different wives
online people have George having 16 children including Alice. Yet when I run the names in the GRO I find three different mother maiden (Ride, Fletcher and Clarke) names that closely match the children's birth years or I can't find the children at all. I have also found different children born in Belper born with the last name Cresswell and mother maiden name Ride which are not on other peoples trees??? I was trying to figure out if they are related to Alice and other people have made a mistake>>>

Name: CRESSWELL, JOSEPH   Surname: RIDE 
GRO Reference: 1845  J Quarter in BELPER UNION  Volume 19  Page 454

Name: CRESSWELL, HANNAH Maiden Surname: RIDE 
GRO Reference: 1847  J Quarter in BELPER UNION  Volume 19  Page 438
   
Name: CRESSWELL, THOMAS  Surname: RIDE 
GRO Reference: 1850  J Quarter in BELPER  Volume 19  Page 507

Name: CRESSWELL, SARAH  RIDE  GRO Reference: 1851  D Quarter in BELPER  Volume 19  Page 444

Name:CRESSWELL, ALICE  Mother's Maiden Surname: RIDE  GRO Reference: 1853  D Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 375


Offline mckha489

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 20 August 22 21:07 BST (UK) »
Jason.

What are the details on the Cresswell/Whiteman marriage certificate? all of them, including witnesses,  Crossings out, addresses, occupations, ages.

This is your direct line. You need that marriage certificate.



Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 20 August 22 21:22 BST (UK) »
Could this be your Alice?

1861 Piece:   2509 Folio:   16 Page number:25
surname transcribed Crosswell on Anc*y
George  36   Head, nail maker
Easter    37   Wife
Joseph    15   Son
Thomas    11   Son
ALLICE   7 Belper   Daughter
Angelina   5   Daughter
Louisa    3   Daughter
Mary Ann   3 mths   Daughter

CRESSWELL, ANGELINA   mmn RYDE
GRO Reference: 1855  D Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 367   

George Creswell Age:   42, abode Cow Hill Belper
Burial 10 Jan 1867 Belper, St Peter, Derbyshire

There this 1867 burial for a George Cresswell also a link for son Thomas b1850 d1935
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/233005530/george-cresswell

1871 Piece:   3584 Folio:   39 Page number:   16
address Cow Hill
Esther Cresswell   44   Head Widow
Alice    17 Belper   Daughter mill hand
Angelina    13   Daughter
Mary Ann    11   Daughter
Emeline    8   Daughter
Esther    5   Daughter

edit to add to confirm mother's maiden name
CRESSWELL, EMMELINE       mmn RIDE 
GRO Reference: 1862  D Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 416

CRESSWELL, ESTHER       mmn RIDE 
GRO Reference: 1864  S Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 419

1881 Piece:   3413 Folio:   83 Page Number:   14
Ester Cresswell   56
Alice    Dau 26  Belper Stocking embroidress
Ester    17
Albert    5 GDson
Herbert    2 ditto
Horace Webster   6 ditto

It’s only an index of the marriage so doesn’t show father’s names, occupations ages  etc..

Henry Whiteman married Alice Creswell on 6th October 1883 at St Saviour Church Nottingham, Denomination Anglican

You would need to obtain the actual marriage certificate to confirm fathers names - snap mckha489 posting whilst red writing  :)


1891  ???

1901 Piece:   3227 Folio:   176 Page number:   30
Henry Whiteman  49
Alice  48 Belper Derbyshire
Fred’k 15
Ethel 13
Eliza 9
Elizabeth Barker 62 sister wid.
1 boarder

Eliza Whiteman
Baptism    19 Dec 1896 Longford, Derbyshire
Father:   Henry , miner   Mother:   Alice abode Smalley

1911
Alice Whiteman 57 widow Belper
Edward Cresswell 24 son in law
Eliza 20 dau
Sydney 2 Gdson

1939 address 1 Alms Morley Moor - so perhaps this is her burial

Alice Whiteman Age:88, abode Morley Moor, Morley
Burial    8 Sep 1942
Burial Place:   Stanley Common, Derbyshire

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Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 20 August 22 21:33 BST (UK) »
Marriage    25 Oct 1844Duffield, Derbyshire

George Cresswell full age occ nailor
father Joseph, occ collier

Esther Ride full age, Res Belper
father George  Ride, occ nailor

both made their mark x

George Cresswell
Baptism 1825 Belper, St Peter, Derbyshire
Father:   Joseph occ collier Mother:   Hannah

1841 census Piece:   180 Book:   4 Folio:   36 Page number:   24
George RIDE 50 occ nail maker
Hannah  50
George 15
Easter 15 cotton spinner
Hannah 10
William 10
Mary  5
Joseph 5
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Offline Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 20 August 22 22:24 BST (UK) »
Next door to the Whitemans in 1901 is Albert Cresswell and family. he's born Belper c1875, so fits the grandson in Esther's household.  Witness at his marriage is Horace Webster, from the same 1881 census entry

There's a baptism in 1878 for an Albert, son of Alice Cresswell. Birth registration Q1 1876, no mother's maiden name

Offline Annette7

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 20 August 22 22:57 BST (UK) »
Alice Cresswell has 2 illegitimate sons:

Albert - birth Mar.1876 Belper - bp.15/1/1878 Belper, son of Alice
Herbert - birth Mar.1879 Belper (on Ancestry but not on GRO index?) - bp.28/6/1881 son of Alice.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annette7

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 21 August 22 00:14 BST (UK) »
Alice's father George bc.1825 (or ca.1823 on 1841 census?) was the son of Joseph Cresswell and wife Rebecca.

Joseph Cresswell (single) married Rebecca Wood 28/2/1825 Duffield, Derbyshire.

None of their children as shown on 1841/1851 census show up in available online baptisms but birth entry for their youngest, Hannah, in 1843 confirms her mmn as Wood. 

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Jason Jase

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Re: Henry Whiteman ---- Alice Cresswell Mess ???? I need help
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 21 August 22 07:12 BST (UK) »
Jason.

What are the details on the Cresswell/Whiteman marriage certificate? all of them, including witnesses,  Crossings out, addresses, occupations, ages.

This is your direct line. You need that marriage certificate.

This is my direct line.
 The problem have with buying a marriage Cert is
I already know the father of Henry is Thomas Whiteman. The Father of Alice Cresswell is either George Cresswell or George Cresswell but which George Cresswell and who is the mother. The British marriage certs do not have the mothers name on it. I guess the only useful thing on it maybe the witness and if that witness can be traced to one of the George Cresswell Families