Author Topic: Illegitimacy and fathers name  (Read 13915 times)

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 08 September 22 09:40 BST (UK) »

I always assumed that it was from 1855 here in Scotland? Can you tell me where you found the 1875 ruling please Guy?
Thanks
Lodger.
Yes my mistake the 1875 legislation only covered England and Wales.

The problem with marriages in Scotland was/is that in Scotland marriage only requires consent.
As stated by Sir Patrick Ford in this extract.:-

"In Scotland, marriage is purely a contract by consent between the parties. It requires nothing else but that consent and that must be de presenti; that is to say, not in the future, but here and now, for all time they say, "We are man and wife"; and for the protection of the female it is also provided that a promise of marriage subsequente copula, on the strength of the promise, if the girl can prove that promise before the act took place, also constitutes marriage. I think that is only fair to all parties. The only difficulty is the proof and the Scottish law is very extraordinary with regard to that. We know that besides a statement made before witnesses if the parties are by "habit and repute" living as man and wife that constitutes marriage, but there is an even more extreme case that I would like to quote because it always remains in my mind as a very interesting instance of the extremes to which Scottish law presses its principles."

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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 08 September 22 10:38 BST (UK) »
Spot on.

The regulations stipulated that the name of the father of an illegitimate child could only be recorded on the child's birth certificate if the father accompanied the mother when she went to register the birth and signed the certificate alongside her.

Only from 1875
Not so.

That may have been the case in England and Wales, but the following is an extract from the text of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland) Act 1854: XXXV. In the Case of an illegitimate Child it shall not be lawful for the Registrar to enter the Name of any Person as the Father of such Child, unless at the joint Request of the Mother and of the Person acknowledging himself to be the Father of such Child, and who shall in such Case sign the Register as Informant along with the Mother ....
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #11 on: Friday 09 September 22 09:46 BST (UK) »
Spot on.

The regulations stipulated that the name of the father of an illegitimate child could only be recorded on the child's birth certificate if the father accompanied the mother when she went to register the birth and signed the certificate alongside her.

Only from 1875
Not so.

That may have been the case in England and Wales, but the following is an extract from the text of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland) Act 1854: XXXV. In the Case of an illegitimate Child it shall not be lawful for the Registrar to enter the Name of any Person as the Father of such Child, unless at the joint Request of the Mother and of the Person acknowledging himself to be the Father of such Child, and who shall in such Case sign the Register as Informant along with the Mother ....

Yes as I previously conceded (in answer to Lodger) I had made an error.

However how did the Scottish Registrar know if the couple was married as the was no necessity in law for the couple to have gone through any ceremony.
As Sir Patrick Ford said on the matter "The only difficulty is the proof and the Scottish law is very extraordinary with regard to that."
See also http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rtn/
Cheers
Guy
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #12 on: Friday 09 September 22 10:26 BST (UK) »
However how did the Scottish Registrar know if the couple was married as the was no necessity in law for the couple to have gone through any ceremony.
I think declaration before witnesses could be construed as being a ceremony.

And even if you don't choose to regard it as a ceremony, there was a procedure to be followed from 1855 onwards in order to have the marriage registered. This involved the couple and their witnesses appearing before a sheriff and testifying to the fact that the parents had declared themselves married, and the sheriff then issued a warrant to authorise the Registrar to issue a marriage certificate.

The specific question in this thread relates to the surnames of children whose parents did not claim to be married when the birth was registered, so the question of how and when they were married does not arise, and any comments relating to the legality of the parents' marriage are irrelevant.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 10 September 22 11:19 BST (UK) »
The specific question in this thread relates to the surnames of children whose parents did not claim to be married when the birth was registered, so the question of how and when they were married does not arise, and any comments relating to the legality of the parents' marriage are irrelevant.

That specific question was also covered in the link I gave, I had tried to add the exact paragraph by time given but for some reason I could not make any changes to the post or indeed access any Rootschat lists until I had rebooted my computer, for which I apologise.

However if you open the link and scroll to Sir Patrick Ford’s extract timed as 12.30 p.m. you will see no witnesses to a statement of being married was required. Scottish law was very relaxed in that matter.

See http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rtn/  Sir Patrick Ford 12.30 p.m. 4th paragraph

“I remember a professor of Scottish law pointing out that there was actually a case with regard to inheritance which some Members seem to think does not matter, but it is, after all, an important point. There was an elderly spinster who lived in one parish and a minister of the Established Church or of the Free Church of Scotland who lived in another. They met at a tea party, and there they certainly did not get married, but they were attracted by each other. They never met again, but from their separate parishes they conducted a correspondence, and that correspondence developed so that it was obvious that they regarded themselves as man and wife. When he died, she put forward her claim as widow under the Scottish law, and, although there was nothing definite in that correspondence to show at what precise date they first recognised themselves as man and wife, it was decided, taking the whole gist of that correspondence over that period of years, that long before the death of the minister this lady was his wife, and she made good her claim to her part of his estate. I give that as an illustration of the peculiar difficulties which we have with regard to proof as to whether there was a state of matrimony or not.”

In the above example there was no witness to a statement that they were man and wife but the gist of the correspondence between them lead to a court finding they were man and wife and allowed her claim to part of his estate. Thereby adding another example to the tombs of case law that may be used to aid a court to coming to a decision.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 10 September 22 12:08 BST (UK) »
Nevertheless all these links remain irrelevant to the original question in this thread, which was clearly phrased to exclude the situation in which the parents claimed to be married.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 10 September 22 15:18 BST (UK) »
Nevertheless all these links remain irrelevant to the original question in this thread, which was clearly phrased to exclude the situation in which the parents claimed to be married.
Nevertheless all these links remain irrelevant to the original question in this thread, which was clearly phrased to exclude the situation in which the parents claimed to be married.
Threads develop.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline BillyF

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 10 September 22 16:10 BST (UK) »
My grandfather had a cousin born illegitimately and registered as such. A couple of years later his mother had his paternity proved at the Sheriff`s Court (now would have 2 names).
His marriage registration shows his birth name, and that of his stepfather who his mother married when he was 20.

I have entered him on my tree with his uncorrected birth name, but added notes to show the use of the different names.

Offline Countryquine

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Re: Illegitimacy and fathers name
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 11 September 22 13:56 BST (UK) »
Thanks all for interesting information surrounding illegitimacy.

I now feel justified in keeping the fathers name in the tree, and accepting them as such.   (Which is just as well as the illegitimate offspring were in both cases male and therefore were responsible for the name those branches of the family tree took).

I did search for kirk session records for one case but found none.