Info about military career

[pendlelad]

Hi there,

Im doing a bit of research for a friend about his family and have come across a bit of a brick wall with his grandfather PATRICK JOSEPH DRUGAN. I dont have his birth or death dates although i believe he was born circa 1901 and died 1948 in Bradford.

On the 1939 register he is not present however his wife (Catherine b.1900) and children are living at 4, Kiwi Barracks, Bulford Camp in Wiltshire.

Is there any way of finding out what regiment he was in? What rank he was, or whether he had a military career prior to WW2? I cannot find any other records relating to him.

Thankyou,
Pendlelad

[CaroleW]

Suspect this couple married in Ireland.  Catherine re married 1949 as Drugan/Duigan. 
Births in 1934/1937 /1938 show her maiden name as Darrie

WW2 records are still with the MoD

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651453.msg4978701#msg4978701

[pendlelad]

Suspect this couple married in Ireland.  Catherine re married 1949 as Drugan/Duigan. 
Births in 1934/1937 /1938 show her maiden name as Darrie

WW2 records are still with the MoD

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651453.msg4978701#msg4978701

Thanks CaroleW.

Strangely ive found two marriage records for them. One in Edinburgh in 1925 and another in 1930 at Bordon with Longmoor, Sacred Heart church which was also a military camp. No idea why they would get married twice but they did.

Pendlelad

[rosie99]

They possibly married twice as they did not have permission from the army for the first marriage 

[Andy J2022]

I think that is going to be quite difficult to find out his unit based just on a geographical reference. Bulford Camp was from a very early part of the twentieth century up to the present day the home the UK 3rd Division, along with a number of its supporting units, such as Gunners, Sappers, Signals and RAOC (now RLC) to name but four capbages. Today Kiwi Barracks is home to 3rd Regiment RMP, although only 158 Provost Company is actually based there (see link below). The current Kiwi Barracks is fairly small and probably not more than 40 years old so it's difficult to know what kind of unit might have been stationed there in the 1930s.
There may be a clue in this caption from a photograph in the Imperial War Museum archive which says "Formal group study of the Officers of 9th Battalion, The Parachute Regiment, taken in front of the Officers' Mess, Kiwi Barracks, Bulford Camp, February 1944. The reverse is annotated the names of all officers depicted and their fate in connection with the assault on the Merville Battery, 6 June 1944". That suggests that the old barracks may have been an infantry barracks.

Another thing to consider is how married quarters were allocated in the 1930s. Today this is done on a garrison wide basis meaning that the occupants of a married quarter adjacent to a barracks may not necessarily have belonged to a unit which was housed in that barracks. Whether that was so in 1939 I do not know.

I've done a quick newspaper search for the period, but nothing comes up specifically relating to Kiwi Barracks ( or Kiwi Lines as it would have been known in the 1930s).  I think we can rule out 48th Coy RASC as they were based in Somme Lines (where ever that was).

If for any reason, you decide not to get his service record, your best bet is to go through any regimental histories (such as the Parachute Regiment mentioned above) for the immediate pre-war period to see if any mention Kiwi Barracks.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1928792,-1.732985,3a,75y,146.49h,91.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWPKy_rBVKXTaVHz2pMWUFw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

[pendlelad]

They possibly married twice as they did not have permission from the army for the first marriage 

Ah interesting i never thought of that. Another interesting point is that there is a civil record (GRO) for the 1925 marriage however for the 1930 marriage i cannot find one, only a parish marriage record.

Pendlelad

[pendlelad]

I think that is going to be quite difficult to find out his unit based just on a geographical reference. Bulford Camp was from a very early part of the twentieth century up to the present day the home the UK 3rd Division, along with a number of its supporting units, such as Gunners, Sappers, Signals and RAOC (now RLC) to name but four capbages. Today Kiwi Barracks is home to 3rd Regiment RMP, although only 158 Provost Company is actually based there (see link below). The current Kiwi Barracks is fairly small and probably not more than 40 years old so it's difficult to know what kind of unit might have been stationed there in the 1930s.
There may be a clue in this caption from a photograph in the Imperial War Museum archive which says "Formal group study of the Officers of 9th Battalion, The Parachute Regiment, taken in front of the Officers' Mess, Kiwi Barracks, Bulford Camp, February 1944. The reverse is annotated the names of all officers depicted and their fate in connection with the assault on the Merville Battery, 6 June 1944". That suggests that the old barracks may have been an infantry barracks.

Another thing to consider is how married quarters were allocated in the 1930s. Today this is done on a garrison wide basis meaning that the occupants of a married quarter adjacent a barracks may not necessarily have belonged to a unit which was housed in that barracks. Whether that was so in 1939 I do not know.

I've done a quick newspaper search for the period, but nothing comes up specifically relating to Kiwi Barracks ( or Kiwi Lines as it would have been known in the 1930s).  I think we can rule out 48th Coy RASC as they were based in Somme Lines (where ever that was).

If for any reason, you decide not to get his service record, your best bet is to go through any regimental histories (such as the Parachute Regiment mentioned above) for the immediate pre-war period to see if any mention Kiwi Barracks.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1928792,-1.732985,3a,75y,146.49h,91.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWPKy_rBVKXTaVHz2pMWUFw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Andy J2022,

Thankyou so much for your detailed response. I will have a look at the regimental histories. There is a P DRUGAN on Forces War Records described as War Substantive Sergeant Major in 1944 and earlier in 1942 as a Warrant Officer 1st Class both for the Pioneer Corps. Would that be a possibility?

I will have a talk with my friend about requesting the service records as i dont think he knows anything about his grandfather.

Thanks again,
Pendlelad

[Andy J2022]

After the First World War, the Labour Corps (the immediate predecessor of the Pioneer Corps) was disbanded. Moves to re-establish  the pioneers began in about 1937-8 as tensions with Germany pointed to new hostilities. Officers, NCOs and men to make up the new unit were selected from among the Territorial Army's Infantry regiments, and by the summer of 1939 a unit had been put together which would support the BEF. This was known as the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps, later shortened to Pioneer Corps.
So, yes, it is possible that in September 1939 your man was in a Pioneer unit based in Bulford. However the fact that his wife was already in a married quarter suggests that he wasn't a TA soldier, but rather a regular who possibly volunteered to move over to the AMPC. Alternatively he may have transferred later on when the Pioneer Corps grew. The fact that he had reached warrant rank by 1942 supports this theory. I am slightly confused by the fact that he is reported to hold the rank of WO1 in 1942, yet in 1944 he is described as a sergeant  major (this appointment is usually in the rank WO2, ie one rank below WO1). Possibly the 'sergeant major' reference should actually read Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) which is a WO1 appointment, and as such he would have been the most senior non-commissioned soldier in his unit.
If he was an RSM I would expect his name to come up in the various histories of the Pioneer Corps (later Royal Pioneer Corps). See if you can find a copy of this book: Rhodes-Wood, E.H. A war history of the Royal Pioneer Corps, 1939-1945. Aldershot: Gale & Polden, 1960. (none currently available on amazon)
Other sources of information include the Royal Pioneer Corps Association (they also have a Facebook page)
and the Royal Logistics Corps Museum (the RPC was absorbed in to the RLC in 1993).
Incidentally, the nickname for the RPC was the Chunkies - a reference to the heavy labouring work they traditionally undertook.

PS the search function on the RPC Association website doesn't work so you may need to enail them to see if they hold anything on P Drugan.

[CaroleW]

If you download a copy of the Scottish 1925 marriage cert it will give you his parents names & his mothers maiden name