Author Topic: Help in translating c.1388/9 latin document  (Read 317 times)

Offline Marayong

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Help in translating c.1388/9 latin document
« on: Tuesday 01 November 22 11:28 GMT (UK) »
Hi, I'm hoping some kind soul can take a stab at translating the attached latin document. I'm told it could be a marriage settlement, possibly dated Hilary term 1388/9, for Simon & Jone Tuketon of Northiam, Sussex. If it is, does it give any indication of Simon's parentage? There was a Simon in Northiam as early as 1360 and since Simon (or one of them) died c.1406 with a minor child, the 1360s references are a bit of a puzzle.

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help in translating c.1388/9 latin document
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 01 November 22 14:38 GMT (UK) »
Wrong document? There's no marriage or settlement mentioned here.

It’s a transfer of property from Robert Houchon of Woodgate and Henry Gotele, to Simon Toketon and his wife Joan, consisting of all the lands, tenements, rents and services in Kent and Sussex that they recently held by gift and feoffment of Simon. If Simon and Joan die without lawful heirs, the properties will go to Joan atte Cherche, the wife of Stephen Benneyt, and her lawful heirs. Failing any heirs of Joan atte Cherche, all the lands and tenements in Benenden and Tenterden will go to Margery atte Wodegate and her lawful heirs. Failing any heirs of Margery, they will go to the right heirs of Simon Toketon for ever. Given and sealed at Toketon on 12 January 1388/9;* witnesses Robert de Echynghame, John Gotele, Henry Hore, Richard Hore, Robert Hore and others.

          * Tuesday next before the Feast of St Hilary, 12. Richard II

Offline RobertHauteville

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Re: Help in translating c.1388/9 latin document
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 01 November 22 18:41 GMT (UK) »
A marriage dowry? Sounds like Joan, Joan & Margery are kinswomen and the land was given to Simon/Joan by a common ancestor who wanted it to stay in the family in the event of no heirs in any one line.

Offline Marayong

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Re: Help in translating c.1388/9 latin document
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 01 November 22 22:00 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the synopsis Bookbox. The document itself is not catalogued and is in a box of misc documents relating to the Tufton family which itself is catalogued simply as "Tufton family documents", not terribly revealing. A fellow researcher who lives in the UK was able to visit the Kent archives and get a copy. He *thought* it may have been a marriage settlement, but he wasn't sure, not being able to read latin. We don't know when Simon & Joan married, but this document says they were married by the given date. Your synopsis suggests they had no issue at the time and indeed when Simon died by 1406, he had only one son, a minor, who was deeded property in 1416 from his mother, possibly upon coming of age. That fits with a birth around 1395.

The families of Gotele & Benneyt do crop up in the 1400s connected with the Tufton/Toketons, so no surprise there.

You mention "Joan atte Cherche, the wife of Stephen Benneyt". Does the document give any detail on her or what her family connection to Joan Toketon may have been? The property goes to Joan Toketon and thence to Joan (now) Benneyt, and with the same forename they are probably not sisters. Probably, not definitely.

The sequence also seems odd ... to Simon & Joan, if no issue thence to Joane atte Church, if no issue thence to Margery, if no issue thence to the heirs of Simon ... but the chain starts with the assumption Simon had no heirs! Could this be implying there were two Simons Toketons? That would explain the earlier references .. the last named Simon would then be Simon Sr .. but if that was the case why wasn't one called Simon the younger and the other Simon the elder? Unless there is a difference between "lawful heirs" and "right heirs"? Or am I over analysing? :)


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help in translating c.1388/9 latin document
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 01 November 22 23:41 GMT (UK) »
You mention "Joan atte Cherche, the wife of Stephen Benneyt". Does the document give any detail on her or what her family connection to Joan Toketon may have been?

No relationship or connection is stated. I have given you all the detail that is there.

Unless there is a difference between "lawful heirs" and "right heirs"?

There is a difference between lawful heirs and right heirs. This sort of wording is common in an entailed settlement, which aims to keep the estate within the family through legitimate succession (heredibus de corporibus eorundem legitime procreatis = ‘to the lawfully produced heirs of their bodies’). If the lineage fails, the estate should go to anyone else who could inherit under common law (rectis heredibus = ‘to the right heirs’).

Offline Marayong

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Re: Help in translating c.1388/9 latin document
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 02 November 22 01:24 GMT (UK) »
Thanks. That clears that up .. right vs lawful. Thanks again for your help. Very much appreciated!