Author Topic: Thomas Dalrymple  (Read 154039 times)

Offline JRSneddon

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Thomas Dalrymple
« on: Tuesday 15 November 22 04:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
I am trying find Thomas Dalrymple's parents, I have his birth in 1750's Polmont.
Thomas married Alison Mitchel(l) 24/01/1772 in Polmont / Denny.
Thomas died on 19/09/1810 - the burial record from Scotland's People only shows they bought a Mort Cloth for 10 Bob.
They had a son Hugh Dalrymple (my ancestor) in 1792.

Ancestry has his father as John Dalrymple the 5th Earl of Stair, but the wives does not match and from what I can find they did not have a son called Thomas.

Thanks in advance

John

Offline garstonite

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 15 November 22 09:02 GMT (UK) »
obviously not all trees are correct - found this

Thomas DalrympleBorn in 1752 - Polmont, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Deceased 19 September 1810 - Polmont, Stirlingshire, Scotland, aged 58 years old
 
Parents
Cpt. John Dalrymple 5th Earl of Stair 1720-1789
Sarah ? 1718-1765
 
Spouses and children
Married 6 January 1772, Denny,Stirling,Scotland, to Allison Mitchell 1742-1824 with
M Hugh John Dalrymple 1792-1857
 
Half-siblings
On the side of Cpt. John Dalrymple 5th Earl of Stair 1720-1789
with Margaret Middleton 1729-1798
M John Dalrymple 6th Earl of Stair 1749-1821
F Mary Dalrymple 1754-
.....................................................
so his mum was SARAH
Margaret Middleton was Capt Johns SECOND wife - does that explain anything ?
tree owner is a Gwen France - and looks like you could be related as she also goes back to Thomas's Grandparents

https://gw.geneanet.org/gwennie1?n=dalrymple&oc=&p=thomas
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline ColC

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 15 November 22 10:14 GMT (UK) »

Given the children’s names below, John would seem to be an unlikely fathers name. There are however two baptisms for a Thomas in Falkirk on SP 1743 to ALEXANDER DALRYMPLE/SUSANNA PRECY & 1744 to JOHN DALRYMPLE/ISABELL MARSHAL.I would have thought the one below might be worth following up?

THOMAS DALRYMPLE   Baptism    JAMES DALRYMPLE/JEAN HEATHERTON    09/03/1746   Canongate, Edinburgh.

THOMAS DALRYMPLE/ALISON MITCHELL - baptisms

JANET   14/02/1773   Airth
JAMES FISH   28/03/1777   Larbert
JEAN   26/01/1783   Polmont
ALISON   06/11/1785   Polmont
ALISON   28/12/1787   Polmont
THOMAS   25/04/1790   Polmont
HUGH   9/09/1792   Polmont

Possible baptism for Alison, there was an earlier one, same name and parents in 1742, presume died.   

ALISON MITCHELL   Baptism    ALEXANDER MITCHELL/JANET GOODALE    17/06/1750   Polmont

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline JRSneddon

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 17 November 22 07:30 GMT (UK) »
obviously not all trees are correct - found this

Thomas DalrympleBorn in 1752 - Polmont, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Deceased 19 September 1810 - Polmont, Stirlingshire, Scotland, aged 58 years old
 
Parents
Cpt. John Dalrymple 5th Earl of Stair 1720-1789
Sarah ? 1718-1765


 
Spouses and children
Married 6 January 1772, Denny,Stirling,Scotland, to Allison Mitchell 1742-1824 with
M Hugh John Dalrymple 1792-1857
 
Half-siblings
On the side of Cpt. John Dalrymple 5th Earl of Stair 1720-1789
with Margaret Middleton 1729-1798
M John Dalrymple 6th Earl of Stair 1749-1821
F Mary Dalrymple 1754-
.....................................................
so his mum was SARAH
Margaret Middleton was Capt Johns SECOND wife - does that explain anything ?
tree owner is a Gwen France - and looks like you could be related as she also goes back to Thomas's Grandparents

https://gw.geneanet.org/gwennie1?n=dalrymple&oc=&p=thomas

Thank You garstonite,
You followed the same track as me which came to Thomas's mother being Sarah, but if she was the Earl of Stair's first wife, I do not think that would not work because John was born in 1749 before Thomas 1752.
 
The eldest son of John Dalrymple, 5th Earl of Stair, and his wife, a daughter of George Middleton, banker of London, was born 24 September 1749.

Being nobility there is no reference to John Dalrymple having 2 wives or a son called Thomas.

John


Offline JRSneddon

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 17 November 22 07:41 GMT (UK) »

Given the children’s names below, John would seem to be an unlikely fathers name. There are however two baptisms for a Thomas in Falkirk on SP 1743 to ALEXANDER DALRYMPLE/SUSANNA PRECY & 1744 to JOHN DALRYMPLE/ISABELL MARSHAL.I would have thought the one below might be worth following up?

THOMAS DALRYMPLE   Baptism    JAMES DALRYMPLE/JEAN HEATHERTON    09/03/1746   Canongate, Edinburgh.

THOMAS DALRYMPLE/ALISON MITCHELL - baptisms

JANET   14/02/1773   Airth
JAMES FISH   28/03/1777   Larbert
JEAN   26/01/1783   Polmont
ALISON   06/11/1785   Polmont
ALISON   28/12/1787   Polmont
THOMAS   25/04/1790   Polmont
HUGH   9/09/1792   Polmont

Possible baptism for Alison, there was an earlier one, same name and parents in 1742, presume died.   

ALISON MITCHELL   Baptism    ALEXANDER MITCHELL/JANET GOODALE    17/06/1750   Polmont

Colin

Thanks Colin,
I have managed to trace Alison Mitchell back 2 more generations.

I am struggling with Thomas; I am pretty sure he was born in 1752, which would discount the Thomas's born in 1740's. I don't think he linked to John 5th earl of Stair - it would have been nice although he ordered the massacre of Glencoe.   
Thomas and Alison were both from Polmont and married in January 1772

Thanks again
John S




Offline ColC

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 17 November 22 11:11 GMT (UK) »
You mention you have his birth in 1750's Polmont, what led you to that information?

If he was born in 1752 that would make him about 20 at the time of marriage, not impossible but below the average age for males at that time.

On SP there are 22 baptisms of the name DALRYMPLE, in Stirlingshire, between 1740 & 1760, none in Polmont and one in Denny below.

DALRYMPLE   JAMES   JAMES DALRYMPLE/JANET STEVENSON    26/10/1755   Denny

JAMES DALRYMPLE   Married    JANET STEVENSON   20/10/1754   Denny

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline Ian Nelson

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 17 November 22 16:41 GMT (UK) »
https://thepeerage.com/i1083.htm

There are hundreds of Dalrymples listed on this site.   Many are Dalrymple - another surname.
Stair is a mini village / hamlet in Ayrshire and Dalrymple is a larger village near Maybole.
There will also be a connection to the notorious Lord Stair.
Hope you have not inherited any of his frailties.
Cheers, Ian
Norfolk, Nelsons of Gt Ryburgh, Gooch, Howman, COLLISONS of Norfolk and Auchlunie Aberdeen ,  Ainger, Couzens, Batrick (Norfolk & Dorset), Tubby of Poringland, Norwich ( also of Yorkshire) Cathcarts of Dublin, Ireland, Lancashire & Isle of Wight) Dickinsons of Morecambe and Lancaster, Wilson of Poulton-le-Sands and Broughton.  Wilson - Ffrance of Rawcliffe,  Mitchells of Isle of Wight. Hair of Ayrshire, Williamson of Tradeston, Glasgow. Nelsons in Australia with Great Ryburgh and Haywards Heath

Offline GR2

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 17 November 22 17:25 GMT (UK) »
According to the Scots Peerage, the fifth Earl of Stair did not have a son called Thomas.

https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun08paul/page/156/mode/2up

Offline MacGiollaMhartain

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Re: Thomas Dalrymple
« Reply #8 on: Monday 24 April 23 01:56 BST (UK) »
Hi - I've been researching Thomas Dalrymple, too, and struggling to find his parents. I descend from Thomas Dalrymple & Alison Mitchel, through their son William (b. 14 April 1780, Larbert, Stirlingshire), who married Ann Ferguson, etc. William's birth record is on ScotlandsPeople.

In many trees, Thomas is listed as born in 1752 at Polmont. There are two marriage-related records on ScotlandsPeople for Thomas Dalymple and Alison Mitchel: (1) Proclamation on 6 January at Denny, Stirlingshire, Scotland, where it lists Thomas Dalrymple in this parish [Denny] and Alison Mitchel in the parish of Polmonton; and (2) The record saying they were married on the 24th of January 1772 in Polmont.

I haven't found any connection to Thomas born to John, the 5th Earl of Stair as his father, apart from seeing it in online trees, with no source shown. 

John was married to Margaret Middleton (the daughter of George Middleton of Erroll and Mary Campbell) on 19 May 1748 at Middlesex, Westminster, England. This couple also had a daughter, Mary (baptized 3 June 1754).   

In the Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-22, it states on page 423 that "By his wife, a daughter of George Middleton, banker, London, he had one son [q.v.], John, who succeeded him as 6th Earl," but on page 425, it goes on to describe this son, stating "DALRYMPLE, JOHN, sixth Earl of Stair, eldest son of John, fifth Earl of Stair (1749-1821), and his wife, a daughter of George Middleton, banker, London, was born 24 September, 1749." The fact that John (the 5th Earl) was first said to have one son by his wife [Margaret], and then this son is referred to as his eldest son is a curious thing, and one could surmise that the 5th Earl had one or more additional sons, perhaps by another woman; son(s) born out-of-wedlock.

I've seen the familysearch reference to the parents of Thomas listed as John Dalrymple (1720-1789), the 5th Earl of Stair and a Sarah Goodale (b. 1718-1765), in addition to a public member tree on Ancestry with the parents of Thomas listed as the 5th Earl of Stair and a Sarah Stewart (b. 2 Aug 1718, Ayr, d. 1765). MyHeritage has a reference to Thomas being born circa 1741, and his father as being a James Dalrymple born on November 4 1789, at Falkirk, Stirling, Scotland.  No source material cited.  No sign of a Sarah Goodale, Sarah Stewart, or James Dalrymple with those birth dates on ScotlandsPeople.

https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/LHK4-WWT/thomas-dalrymple-1752-1810
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/81385736/person/142460679914/facts
https://www.myheritage.com/names/thomas_dalrymple

I am not sure how Sarah materialized or was ever linked to John, the 5th Earl of Stair, as seen in online trees. Granted if she was a Mistress, source materials would be difficult to come by, but one wonders how one would even know that her name was Sarah, let alone her birth and death dates.

The only record that I was able to find for a possible Thomas Dalrymple born to a John Dalrymple and a woman named Sarah in that time frame was a baptismal record (Ancestry) on 30 October 1757 for a Thomas Dalrymple, parents John Dalrymple and Sarah his wife, at St. Mary Magdalen Bermondsey, Southwark, Surrey, England, with the remarks Jacobs Street, Waterman [John's occupation]. The couple also had a daughter, Elizabeth, baptized on 29 April 1760 at that parish, with the same remarks... Waterman , Jacobs Street.

I saw the ScotlandsPeople baptisms mentioned here for a Thomas baptized in 1743 at Falkirk to Alexander Dalrymple / Susanna Precy, in 1744 at Falkirk to John Dalrymple / Isabell Marshal, and in 1746 at Canongate, Edinburgh, to James Dalrymple / Jean Heatherton. There is also a record from ScotlandsPeople for a Thomas Dalrymple born on 29 April 1742 / baptized on 6 May 1742 at Ayr to Anna Dalrymple, with the space for the father left blank.

I couldn't link Thomas to any parent with any confidence just yet.


Bill