Author Topic: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?  (Read 8620 times)

Offline Berdie

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Re: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 17:06 GMT (UK) »
Have you got a tree on ancestry ?

How far back have you traced the ORCHARD family and how high is the Australian DNA match is their ORCHARD line a direct line with any common ancestors

As you said James Orchard is fictitious but likely to be James BERESFORD

Did Sophie use the middle name BERESFORD at any other time other than her marriage ?
It is possible that the father took the child
And she wanted the middle name to be able to acknowledge a relationship at a further point
There is a tree on Ancestry but not with that detail. The Tree is on Wikitree. Have traced Orchard a long way back. Cannot find a common ancestor.
Had a look at the James Beresfords, although a long time ago. I might revisit it. When I looked none of them seemed likely.
However Sophie's father was in the Royal Navy and there was a famous, at the time, Royal Navy Captain with the name Beresford. If she had a choice in the name she may have picked Beresford because of him. He was idolised at the time.
As far as I am aware the first time Sophie used the name Beresford was in naming her daughter in 1884.

ORCHARD, DAWE

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 22 November 22 17:57 GMT (UK) »
There are several trees with Sophie and violet Beresford  ORCHARD  but none have any half siblings

Could Ellen Maud Mary HILL b.1882  be a child taken in by her sister lily ? She was born in Plymouth where Sophie was a maid in 1881

According to 1911 lily's other children were born in Greenwich .
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Berdie

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Re: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 23 November 22 00:39 GMT (UK) »
There are several trees with Sophie and violet Beresford  ORCHARD  but none have any half siblings

Could Ellen Maud Mary HILL b.1882  be a child taken in by her sister lily ? She was born in Plymouth where Sophie was a maid in 1881

According to 1911 lily's other children were born in Greenwich.


I don't think Ellen Maud Mary was Sophie's daughter as then Sophie would have known where she was. No need for the shoe. Ellen would have been the daughter of Lily and W J Hill who were married.

Sophie and Lily both moved from Plymouth to Greenwich .

ORCHARD, DAWE

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 23 November 22 13:01 GMT (UK) »

I have traced Lily Hill. She was Sophie's younger sister. Her birth name was Elizabeth Orchard, she was known as Lily, she married Willaim James Hill.

Odd that Lily (who registered Violet's birth) gave Sophie's maiden name as Archer, when it should be Orchard like her own. Also the birth was registered 49 days after the event. I wonder why Sophie didn't register it herself or, if incapacitated, send Lily to do it within the 42 day limit.

Images of certs are attached the tree on Wikitree
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott


Offline Deirdre784

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Re: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 23 November 22 14:08 GMT (UK) »
Quite possible that Archer was what was heard by the registrar, not too dis-similar given an accent, and possibly not noticed if Lily didnít sign her name (not looked at the images).
CARDIFF:Lord,Griffiths,Barry,Cope,Mahoney ~ PEMBROKESHIRE:Griffiths,Rees,Owen,Thomas ~ ESSEX:Lord,Foreman,Hatch ~ SOMERSET:Lord,Cox,Hockey,Linham,Bryant ~ STAFFORDSHIRE:Cope,Elks,Hackney,Gallimore,Davenport ~ SUFFOLK:Lord,Lockwood,Hatch,Rix,Foreman ~ IRELAND:Barry,Meany,Cummins,Grogan ~
PONTYPRIDD:Leigh,Brooks,Adams,Davies,Thomas ~ KENT:Leigh ~ CHESHIRE:Adams,Tudor,Illidge ~ DENBIGHSHIRE:Edwards,Bolas ~BRECON:Leigh,Thomas,Davies ~SOMERSET:Adams,Keitch,Bridge ~ABERGAVENNY:Minton ~ MERTHYR:.....

Offline Darnity

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Re: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 24 November 22 16:04 GMT (UK) »
Quite possible that Archer was what was heard by the registrar, not too dis-similar given an accent, and possibly not noticed if Lily didnít sign her name (not looked at the images).

Only last week I met a chap with the surname Archer who had traced his paternal line (very well documented) and hence surname back five generations to an Orchard. Orchard and Archer are variants of the same name. As Deirdre says it just takes a mishearing for a name to be written differently and then stay that way.

Can I add something else into this one - any suggestion that the Orchards were from the Travelling community as Orchard is a recognised surname from the community?
Gypsy DRAPERs, children of Billy and Mary - Ellen,Darnity,Spencer,Billy Jnr,Kisby,Ellick
Descendants of Fred and Esther (Garrett) WHITLOCK - Wavendon, Woburn Sands area
Descendants of George and Barbara (Willis) SUTTON - Earls Barton and Nether Heyford
BISSELL - Hanslope, New Bradwell, Bucks and Aston, Birmingham area
Lavinia DRAPER died 1840 Cranfield
Gypsies in the Bow Brickhill and Beds/Bucks border areas

Offline Berdie

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Re: Would the original entry for a child-given-up be removed from the GRO index ?
« Reply #24 on: Monday 28 November 22 13:21 GMT (UK) »
Quite possible that Archer was what was heard by the registrar, not too dis-similar given an accent, and possibly not noticed if Lily didnít sign her name (not looked at the images).

Only last week I met a chap with the surname Archer who had traced his paternal line (very well documented) and hence surname back five generations to an Orchard. Orchard and Archer are variants of the same name. As Deirdre says it just takes a mishearing for a name to be written differently and then stay that way.

Can I add something else into this one - any suggestion that the Orchards were from the Travelling community as Orchard is a recognised surname from the community?

Lily's surname was Hill, but it looks as though the Registrar filled out the entire form including Lily's name. It is possible they weren't very literate. However I could not find a Sophie or Sophia Archer marriage (by checking UK free bmd) that seemed likely and had any daughters (by checking UK GRO for husband's surname and mmn Archer/Orchard). I am led to believe the mistake was intentional. There is no James Orch either.  There is a James Arch but the Sophie/Sophia Orchard/Archer marriages do not show an Orch spouse.

There was indeed a Travelling Community of Orchards. Sophia Orchard b. 1857 Torrington Union, was part of that community. Sophia's (b.1857) father was James Orchard. In at least one census they were living in tents.

 Sophie Orchard's (b 1858) father was Richard Orchard, a rope maker in the Royal Navy. Richard is recorded as Sophie's father in Sophie's marriage to Thomas Bowdidge in 1887, after the birth of Violet which was in 1884. In the 1881 Census Sophie's father, Richard was away at sea.

 Sophie's mother died in 1871. Sophie's father Richard re-married in 1879. Sophie's sister, Lily, married  W J Hill in 1880. In the 1881 census Sophie, her father and her siblings, although not living in the same house, were all living in Plymouth. In 1884 when Violet was born Sophie and Lily were living in Plumstead, which is I believe, like Plymouth, near Royal Navy Dockyards.

ORCHARD, DAWE

Offline rosie99

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