Do these Sayers link up convincingly?

[Davedrave]

Nicholas John Sayers son of Thomas was baptised in Chelmsford in 1768. A John Sayers died in 1853 in King Street, Chelmsford, aged 85 (i.e. born in 1768). He was a shoemaker.

John Sayers had a son William, baptised in 1797. William certainly had a brother John (this known from newspaper reports of a trial), also a shoemaker, born about 1804, though there seems to be no baptism. This John lived in King Street, about 2 houses away from the woman who registered (father?) John’s death. In 1841 both John Sayers lived in Rainsford End (not in the same household). Unfortunately John senior was not in Chelmsford for the 1851 Census (he was John N Sayers with daughter in London).

It looks pretty likely that Nicholas John Sayers was John N. Sayers, but my linking of him to John junior and this William is really circumstantial. Does it look watertight?

[Ruskie]

It sounds very possible, but as you say, circumstantial. The forename name swap is quite possible.

The common names, places and occupations could be other Sayer families such as cousins. Have you tried looking at other Sayers in the area and sorting them into family groups using a process of elimination?

Have you searched for wills which may mention family members? Any information on headstones or in burial registers?

I’m sure others will have more thoughts and ideas.

[Davedrave]

It sounds very possible, but as you say, circumstantial. The forename name swap is quite possible.

The common names, places and occupations could be other Sayer families such as cousins. Have you tried looking at other Sayers in the area and sorting them into family groups using a process of elimination?

Have you searched for wills which may mention family members? Any information on headstones or in burial registers?

I’m sure others will have more thoughts and ideas.

Thanks. Unfortunately they belonged to the class which almost certainly couldn’t afford a headstone and didn’t leave wills, and seem to have had only some of their children baptised. Given the incompeteness of baptism records it makes me wonder how many incorrect assumptions I and others make, especially the further back we go, and how much we can really hope to find out about the non will-making class especially.  I’ll try and see if I can make any progress with family groups.

Dave

[Ruskie]

I have seen shoemaker’s wills in the past hence my suggestion, but agree that lack of records and assumptions made can mean dead ends, or send people down the wrong trail. I hope others will be able to offer some practical suggestions.

If just one or two baptisms are missing you can sometimes slot missing children into those spaces to add another level of probability, but more difficult if many baptisms are missing or children are unbaptised.

In a similar situation I had one son who was suspected to be first born but no baptism was found. Only the one family with that surname lived in the village. All other children, 8 of them, were baptized, so there was that small doubt about whether this child belonged to the family. Burials were found with headstone mentioning a named known third son, which meant unbaptized son fitted into the family as the oldest. He had left home before 1841 so didn’t appear in the census with other family members.

Additional proof - I, a descendant of youngest son, have a DNA match who descends from oldest son. Bingo.

There can be luck involved.

[middlesbrough]

Is this related to your family?

Essex Herald, 18 July,1843.

9th inst., after a short illness, aged 35, Charles, eldest son of Mr John Sayers, shoemaker, of Chelmsford. Deceased, single man was a coal carter, of most exemplary character for honest industry; he had accumulated £100 and upwards in money, which in his last moments he gave to his aged father, a shoemaker, who has for many years suffered from lameness.

[middlesbrough]

Essex Monumental Inscriptions

St Mary the Virgin (Chelmsford Cathedral)

Charles Sayers

Sacred to the memory of Charles Sayers of this parish who was taken ill and died in 24 hours, July 9 1843 aged 35 years.

[Davedrave]

Is this related to your family?

Essex Herald, 18 July,1843.

9th inst., after a short illness, aged 35, Charles, eldest son of Mr John Sayers, shoemaker, of Chelmsford. Deceased, single man was a coal carter, of most exemplary character for honest industry; he had accumulated £100 and upwards in money, which in his last moments he gave to his aged father, a shoemaker, who has for many years suffered from lameness.

Many thanks for these two posts. It is very interesting but certainly throws a spanner in the works. If it is true that  Charles Sayers (who I’d seen with John in the 1841 Census) was his eldest son, then William presumably wasn’t this John’s son. The only thing that might make it still possible is that at this precise time brothers William and John were away from Chelmsford, servings sentences in the Portsmouth hulks for theft (and at this time only 6 months into 10 and 7 year sentences and possibly still viewed as likely to be transported). So I suppose that it is possible that they may have been disowned by their father. 
“My” William Sayers had certainly named a son Charles, which might be relevant here.

[coombs]

You could try and find poor law records, although the ones for Essex are not fully indexed on SEAX Essex website. There is a name index on FamilySearch but the index is only browsable.

Sometimes many ancestors were not well off enough to leave wills but not poor enough to come under the poor law authorities, which can often give great info, especially settlement examinations, although the survival rate is patchy.