Seeking assistance on Maternal family line

[heywood]

There are several workhouse admissions which are possibly William.

This is pertinent, I think, but her age would be different, I think, from the marriage.

1913 25th Sept Admission Southwark

Eleanor Sullivan, 31 yrs
Last residence, Rotherhithe Infurmary 
Alleged Insane
Husband Wm Albert - last known address 31 Laystall Street, Grays Inn
Reason for discharge - Cane hill (?)

There are other possible entries

[BrianClaydon]

Thanks everyone for the information and for being so welcoming,

I have Elizabeth Burrows and Eleanor McCarthy as potential spouses of William Albert Sullivan. The former I am more confident with than the latter.

William Albert Sullivan was definitely a printer/pressman during his life. He was briefly in the army but released early due to a medical condition. His occupation is shown on his enlistment papers and on census records/marriage certificates thereafter as being a printer.

The Julia McCarthy you have found Colin is quite exciting. Not only does she share the right surname as one of the potential spouses, there is some (admittedly) distantly corroborative information I can share. During her life she was known as Julia rather than Victoria. She discovered later in life that she was born in 1897 and not '98 as she believed. The fact that her potential parents married after her birth may also be good reason for her to be McCarthy rather than Sullivan. I guess I am looking for just that last piece of evidence that ties them all together.

Victoria/Sullivan is mentioned twice in the military records of Charles William Sullivan her half brother. You spotted that a lot more quickly than I did Heywood! She signs for some of his belongings after his death in France. One of the things she signed for is a 'French book' and it was through this I made the connection initially. My father sent me lots of our family bits this year to help with my research. One of which was a small French dictionary that probably hadn't been to France (where I now live) for over 100 years. Inside was written his name. We presumed it was her fathers.

I think also there is quite a lot of interaction with the workhouse around this period for this branch of the family. William Albert, but also potentially his sons too. So I think that is an accurate spot too, Colin.

I'll see if Eleanor can take me any further, although I fear I may be off to Ireland soon...

Thanks Heywood,

I will certainly look into that record from Rotherhithe Infirmary. That is really exciting. The stigma attached to her at the time may have contributed to the absence of family history if she is the one. It may also explain a child out of wedlock (IF her daughter is Julia McCarthy) and potentially another child (Maude) who was Victoria/Julia's half sister. All conjecture, but at least not contradictory to what is known.

Regards,

Brian

[heywood]

I have Elizabeth Burrows and Eleanor McCarthy as potential spouses of William Albert Sullivan. The former I am more confident with than the latter.

Bath marriages have William’s father as William, a Tailor
Both marriages have William as a Printer

Where do have any record of Maude ? Was she Sullivan? Do you have an approximate year of birth.

That reminds me, on her marriage, Eleanor McCarthy says she is 30 yrs old. This is different than the workhouse records.
I wonder, as William was 48 yrs at marriage, whether Eleanor added to her years.

[heywood]

From Col
Death?
SULLIVAN, ELEANOR       41 
GRO Reference: 1913  D Quarter in CROYDON  Volume 02A  Page 293

I wrote earlier that Eleanor Sullivan was discharged to Cane Hill.
This was a Psychiatric hospital in the Croydon area.

[Ladyhawk]

Victoria maybe?

MCCARTHY, JULIA       MCCARTHY 
GRO Reference: 1898  S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK  Volume 01D

There is this potential catholic baptism for the birth entry that Colin has posted above

Julia McCarthy Birth 13 Aug 1898
Baptism 25 Aug 1898 Parish Rotherhithe, St Peter & Guardian Angels
Father Jeremiae McCarthy Mother Mary McCarthy (olim McCarthy)
Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms Diocese Southwark

In 1901 the family are living 13, Warford Place, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark,
Jeremiah 1861 Ireland, waterside labourer & Mary 1863 Southwark
children
John 1882 Southwark, carman, Ted 1884 Lambeth, corn porter, Tom 1888 Lambeth ,
Mary 1890 Bermondsey, Kate 1892 Bermondsey & JULIA 1899 Bermondsey
Piece number 392 Folio 119 Page 25

Possible birth entries for above children

MCCARTHY, JOHN mmn MCCARTHY
GRO Reference: 1882  J Quarter in ST. SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 99   

Is Ted’s birth registered as Timothy?

MCCARTHY, TIMOTHY   mmn MCCARTHY
GRO Reference: 1884  J Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 371   

Timotheus McCarthy
Birth date 21 Mar 1884
Baptism date 15 Apr 1884
Parish Southwark, St George's Cathedral
Father Jeremiah McCarthy Mother Mariae McCarthy (olim McCarthy)

MCCARTHY, THOMAS  EUGENE   mmn MCCARTHY
GRO Reference: 1887  S Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 409
   
Thomas Eugenius McCarthy
Birth date 11 Aug 1887
Baptism date 30 Aug 1887
Parish Southwark, St George's Cathedral
Father Jeremiah McCarthy Mother Mariae Annae McCarthy (olim McCarthy)
One of the sponsors named Helena Sullivan

MCCARTHY, MARY   mmn MCCARTHY
GRO Reference: 1890  M Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK  Volume 01D  Page 254   

Kate possibly registered as Kathleen?

MCCARTHY, KATHLEEN   mmn MCCARTHY
GRO Reference: 1892  J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK  Volume 01D  Page 276   

Two possible marriage entries names on same page

Jun 1881                     
CLARKE   James   St. Saviour   1d   311   
Corcoran   Eliza      St. Saviour   1d   311   
McCarthy Jeremiah   St. Saviour 1d   311   
McCarthy   Mary      St. Saviour   1d   311   

and there's also this marriage

Jun 1881                  
CROTTY   Bridget      St Olave   1d   451
DINAN   Patrick      St. Olave   1d   451
McCarthy   Jeremiah   St. Olave   1d   451
McCarthy   Mary Ann      St. Olave   1d   451

- perhaps Thomas Eugene McCarthy born 1887 is their son as mother on baptism is named as Mariae Annae 

1891 census we have this McCarthy family - is it the same family as 1901c?

Jeremiah   McCarthy   Head    1853   General labourer   Ireland
Mary   McCarthy   1860   Southwark London
John   McCarthy            Son   1882   Southwark London
Timothy   McCarthy   Son   1884   Lambeth London
Thomas   McCarthy   Son 1888   Lambeth London
Mary   McCarthy   Daughter   1890 Bermondsey London
Piece number 375 Folio 81 Page 27

[BrianClaydon]

I will respond more fully to each of your kind posts, but just a quick response to Heywood.

'Where do have any record of Maude ? Was she Sullivan? Do you have an approximate year of birth.'

I have no records of Maude, which is a shame as I thought she might help crack it. I only know of her from oral family history. To my father and grandmother she was known as 'Aunt Maude'. She was the half sister of Victoria Julia. Dad doesn't know but thought she was younger, and I cannot find any record of her living in the Sullivan household with William Albert and sons. I think she may be potentially the daughter of Eleanor and another father.

Maude apparently did marry and have a daughter but I can find no records. Her husband may have been a Tom, who died quite young but didn't go to war. Pretty useless information I know, Sorry.

Very muddy around this area of my tree.

[BrianClaydon]

Hi,

Thank you Ladyhawk for going to all that trouble and detail. I have looked at some aspects of this Julia/Victoria possibility in the past, and although some aspects are exciting, I have failed to make a connection afterwards to William Sullivan, who is listed as the father of my Victoria/Julia on her (tatty, but original) marriage certificate.

That said, you have turned up some additional information that looks worth investigating further. The information I have regarding her is so sparse, with much unknown to herself. She certainly was unsure if she had been baptised RC at birth, so was christened CE later on, I was told. I am going to do some research on them tonight on Ancestry to see where the census/trail leads - so thank you very much!

Thank you Heywood,

Just to clarify on the exchange below. I meant no disrespect. I was much happier with Elizabeth Burrows because I have other corroborative evidence, on census records and baptism entries. I have nothing other than the marriage details to support the other union. It doesn't make it wrong at all, just something I will approach with more caution.


'I have Elizabeth Burrows and Eleanor McCarthy as potential spouses of William Albert Sullivan. The former I am more confident with than the latter.

Bath marriages have William’s father as William, a Tailor
Both marriages have William as a Printer'


I am really excited with the possibility that the Eleanor that ends up in Cane Hill is VC's mother. I know there is a lot to establish, but it is a path I was unaware of before. Thank you so much. Have started to look online but I think the records (if pertinent) are only available on site. Will do some more digging...

[heywood]

No offence taken - I was just showing the connections. 

Amongst the workhouse records, I found one which had both William and Eleanor together - only their names. Now, I can’t find it but think it was June/July 1911.

I wonder where Julia was when there were all these admittances.

November 1911, Tower Hamlets, Stepney - discharge
Eleanor Sullivan, 29 yrs, 194, Hanbury Street. wife of William Albert, Compositor. Reason for admittance Gastric Catarrh. R.C. religion and th3 last note says husband unknown.’

[BrianClaydon]

Thanks Heywood,

I have one of them together now too!

Southwark Union. St George's Workhouse, Mint st Register 1905:

William Sullivan born 1853. Aged 52. C of E. Printer
Eleanor Sullivan born 1877. Aged 28. RC.     The profession field for her is filled in but difficult to discern. I can possibly make out Insti... but the rest eludes me and that may just be wishful thinking.

Going to look for more.

Still haven't resolved the other Julia/Victoria lead proposed by Ladyhawk. Have found the family but cannot find them yet on the 1911 census, to see if Jeremiah and Mary are still married. It looks to be more likely on the Mary marriage, rather than the Mary Ann from the two marriage records. Will continue searching.