NORGATE John born circ 1808 in Newton Valence

[Adajane]

I just cannot find John Norgate born in Newton Valence around 1808. He Married in 1833 to Elizabeth Appleford in Chawton. In 1841 and 1851 the census he says he was born in Newton Valence. I have the baptism index for Hampshire from 1752 to 1812 and cannot find him. Just looking for ideas on where to look next.    Surely there should be a baptism record for him?
John died in 1859 in Newton Valence and Elizabeth remarried. 

I think John had a sibling Lucy as she appears on 1891 census with his daughter Lucy who married Edward Neal.
The 1861 census has Lucy Norgate Jnr and Lucy Norgate Snr and Edward Neal all working for the Rockett family in Surrey.   
Lucy Snr never married.
Thank you

[QueenoftheWest]

Welcome to RootsChat!

From my research, I can find at least one other sibling of John's, so the family consisted of at least:

- John Norgate, born c.1808 in Newton Valence.
- Lucy Norgate, born c.1811 in Newton Valence.
- Charlotte Norgate, born c.1813 in Newton Valence.

As you have stated, John's sister Lucy was living with her niece Lucy Neal in 1891. In 1881, she was living with some other family members in Lambeth, London. The family members were Alfred Jones and his wife, Charlotte. Lucy was described as 'aunt' to the couple.

Charlotte's maiden name was Bashford, and she was born in 1849 to James Bashford and Charlotte Norgate:

Name: BASHFORD, CHARLOTTE  Mother's maiden name:  NORGATE 
GRO Reference: 1849  M Quarter in WANDSWORTH AND CLAPHAM UNION  Volume 04  Page 612

Her mother Charlotte was born c.1813 in Newton, Hampshire, so she must be another sibling.

Luckily, unlike John and Lucy who either did not marry or married before civil registration, Charlotte married in 1841 in Lambeth. The marriage certificate provides the name of her father: Thomas Norgate, deceased. Hence, the father of John, Lucy and Charlotte must be Thomas.

I cannot seem to find a baptism for any of the 3 known children of Thomas, so I am wondering if the parents were non-conformists when their children were born and so they were never baptised?

Queenie 

[QueenoftheWest]

There is marriage between a Thomas Norgate and Anne Gurnett in Newton Valence in 1788. I can see that they baptised their children in the parish from 1789-1801 and then I cannot find any further children. I wonder if John, Lucy and Charlotte are their youngest? The mother would have probably been in her mid-40s when Charlotte was born, which seems about right. 

There is a burial for a 75-year-old Thomas Norgate in Newton Valence in 1833, which seems like a good candidate. There is a matching baptism for this man in the same place in 1758.

Queenie 

[Adajane]

Queenie,
Thank you, you've given me some much needed hope and I will look further into all this.  I did have a quick look at Alfred Jones and Charlotte but for some reason didn't take it any further. Yet I do recall thinking at the time umm Aunt Lucy Norgate, so thank you for putting this back into my thoughts and the research you have done. I'll get out the baptism disc for hampshire, start again and set up a small tree for them and see where it leads. Fingers crossed some DNA matches maybe..

Wouldn't it be strange to baptise some Children but not others? If they are indeed the children of Thomas and Anne Gurnett. 

I have the record for Thomas Norgate of Newton Valence buried 5th Feb 1833 age 75  BR103.
Again appreciate your guidance.  Ada

[QueenoftheWest]

Queenie,
Thank you, you've given me some much needed hope and I will look further into all this. 

Wouldn't it be strange to baptise some Children but not others? If they are indeed the children of Thomas and Anne Gurnett. 

Glad I was able to help 

Regarding your comment about not baptising all their children, I have a couple in my family tree who did the exact same thing. They baptised their first 3 children (1782, 1784, 1786) in the local parish church, then they didn't baptise any children at all until 1797, when they baptised a daughter in an independent (non-conformist) chapel. Then, in 1805, they decided to baptise all the children they hadn't done previously in one batch in the local parish church. Hence, my ancestor (born 1789) was not baptised until she was 16. I was lucky that they did eventually decide to baptise her, otherwise it would have been very difficult to trace her family.

This, of course, may not be the case for your ancestor, but it is a good example of not everyone conforming to expectations. There are other reasons for missing baptisms, such as missing pages in the register, the register being illegible etc. Perhaps there was a non-conformist chapel in Newton Valence whose registers have not yet been digitised or have been lost? A whole host of possible explanations.

Queenie 

[garstonite]

not all trees are correct
have a look at this one from www.geneanet.org
John Norgate
Born in 1808 - Hampshire, England
Deceased
 
Parents
Thomas Norgate ca 1790-1869
Elizabeth ? 1791-1868
 
Spouses and children
Married 25 May 1833, Chawton, Hampshire, England, to Elizabeth Appleford ca 1810- with
M Thomas Norgate 1835-1915
F Jane Norgate ca 1838-1909
F Lucy Norgate ca 1838-
F Ann Norgate 1841-
M William Norgate 1845-1924
ADDED
Another tree has him born Ropley ,Hampshire
googled - Newton Valance to Ropley is 7 miles ?   I wonder if he was born Newton Valance but the family church was in Ropley - or - vice versa 

[garstonite]

I am not trying to confuse you - but here is another tree has John born 1785 Ropley - so you see what I mean about not all trees are correct 
John Norgate
Born 1785 - Ropley, Hampshire, England
Baptized 27 June 1783 - Westhampnett, Sussex, England
Deceased 9 December 1875 - Alresford, Hampshire, England, aged about 90 years old
 
Spouses and children
Married 25 May 1833, Chawton, Hampshire, England, to Elizabeth mil 4G A APPLEFORD ca 1810- with
M Thomas h 4G A NORGATE ca 1835-1912
so he was baptised 2 years before he was born ....lol
 ...the mind boggles

[Adajane]

Hi, That's why i don't copy trees but search for the info myself...    Funny how folk don't check baptism dates etc

[Pentljoe]

Hi! Hope you don't mind me tagging in on this thread.  Charlotte Jones (Bashford) and Alfred Jones were my 2nd great grandparents.  I found Roots chat on a search for Thomas Norgate. I did not know there was a son called John.  I have found an Eli, but I need further investigation.

I am intrigued by Lucy Norgate (1811) and her life living as a servant and then by her own means.  Can I ask if you know where Edward and Lucy Neal come into the tree? 

Many thanks!