Need help with name please.

[Mitche11]

Sorry to ask another question. Did Frances die as Frances Morley in 1951 Croydon. If so this death registration gives a birth year of 1875. Stephen married Martha Morley sq 1875. Wondering if she was this birth ref

MORLEY, FRANCES       - 
GRO Reference: 1875  M Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 152

John

She died Frances Painter in 1929, she was buried 3 Sept 1929 at Morden, Surrey, her birth on burial record is 1889.

[Neale1961]

I have found a marriage for a Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley:
BMD Ref: Sep 1875   
TAYLOR    Stephen        Lewisham    1d   1283   
MORLEY    Martha        Lewisham    1d   1283   
This Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley fits better than Stephen Taylor and Martha Pereira!

How can they be a better fit? That makes no sense.
Are you not looking for parents of Frances born in Brixton about 1876?

Since you say you have everything about Frances, please post the information for her and family from the 1921 census (previously requested #22).

[Mitche11]

I have found a marriage for a Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley:
BMD Ref: Sep 1875   
TAYLOR    Stephen        Lewisham    1d   1283   
MORLEY    Martha        Lewisham    1d   1283   
This Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley fits better than Stephen Taylor and Martha Pereira!

How can they be a better fit? That makes no sense.
Are you not looking for parents of Frances born in Brixton about 1876?

Since you say you have everything about Frances, please post the information for her and family from the 1921 census (previously requested #22).

I don’t have the 1921 Census. The reason Stephen Taylor and Frances Morley seem a better fit as I put it is because everything I have for Frances dates her birth between 1879 - 1889, her surname changed to Morley in 1914 when she and her children were in the workhouse, I believe she left Frank Martin and used her mother’s maiden name, so that’s the reason I believe Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley are her parents and not Steven Taylor and Martha Piereira, as their daughter Frances was born 1876, her father’s occupation was a painter but the Stephen Taylor I am searching for was a builder.

[Ladyhawk]

I have found a marriage between a Stephen Taylor and a Martha Morley m 1873 Lewisham,

I cannot find this marriage. Can you please give full details.

Sorry I got the date wrong, they married 1875 in Lewisham, BMD Ref: 1d 1283

Sep 1875               
ASSITER   Phoebe Ann Lewisham   1d   1283    
Mills   William   Lewisham   1d   1283    
Morley   Martha   Lewisham   1d   1283    
TAYLOR   Stephen   Lewisham   1d   1283   

It looks as if

Stephen Taylor married 1875 Phoebe Ann Assiter
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45360192/stephen-taylor
Stephen Taylor Bn 7 Sep 1845 England Died 16 Aug 1910 (aged 64) La Salle County, Texas, USA

TAYLOR, HERBERT  STEPHEN     mmn ASSITER 
GRO Reference: 1876  J Quarter in LEWISHAM UNION  Volume 01D  Page 1022

So that would mean Martha Morley married William Mills and I think this is them on 1891 census with son Ernest

William Mills 43 Head
Martha 39   Wife
Ernest W 8   Son
Piece   524 Folio   54
   
MILLS, ERNEST  WILLIAM   mmn MORLEY
GRO Reference: 1882  S Quarter in LEWISHAM  Volume 01D  Page 1119   

[Neale1961]

I think you have made the wrong assumption that the name MORLEY comes from Frances’ parents.

There is no marriage record for Frances TAYLOR to Frank MARTIN.
In the 1901 census Frances MARTIN claims to be married, but is living alone with baby Evelyn.
There is no sign of Frank MARTIN. In fact the only time we ever see him is in 1911 census. He does not appear on earlier census that I can find. No sign of him in 1901. There is no record of a birth for a Frank / Francis MARTIN / MARTYN in Edinburgh between 1868 and 1875.

The children’s birth registrations and their baptism tell an interesting story. Looking at the original documents would add further to your investigations. They may give you addresses and other detail which may be helpful in clarifying various issues.

Birth:
MARTIN, EVELYN    (Frances Evelyn)   -  no mother recorded
GRO Reference: 1900  J Quarter in STEPNEY  Volume 01C  Page 385 (born Aug 1899)

She was born in August 1899, but not registered until June Quarter 1900. Why so very late? I think because the father Frank MARTIN had disappeared - deserted poor Frances. Evelyn is registered with the right surname, but there clearly is confusion about the mother. If it was Frances who registered the birth, she had some reason for not putting her maiden name there. Maybe someone else registered the birth – who?

 Births:
TAYLOR, FRANK  EDWIN          Mother - MARTIN 
GRO Reference: 1901  J Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 407 (born April 1901)
   
TAYLOR, JEAN             Mother - MARTIN 
GRO Reference: 1907  J Quarter in WANDSWORTH  Volume 01D  Page 596 (born Feb 1907)

I suspect neither of these children were fathered by Frank MARTIN. He was absent in 1901 and probably for some years after. The children are registered with the surname TAYLOR and Frances has recorded her name as MARTIN, so it would not appear that the children were illegitimate.
Then in April 1907, all three children were baptised together. Why not earlier baptisms? Because Frank was not around ? So when he re-appeared in 1907, baptisms went ahead?

We have the family all together in 1911. The next child born in 1912 is clearly registered correctly - the son of Frank MARTIN and Frances (nee TAYLOR)
Birth:
MARTYN, RONALD  DOUGLAS              Mother - TAYLOR 
GRO Reference: 1912  J Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 669


Then in 1913 it seems that Frank MARTIN again deserted Frances and the children, so they end up relying on the workhouse early in 1914.
It is MOST unlikely that a woman with 4 children to care for, would leave her husband - the only means of survival, as suggested by “Mitche11” in post #29.

Why the name change to MORLEY? The 2 most likely reasons, in my opinion are:
1.   Frank MARTYN was using an alias, and it was discovered he was really Frank MORLEY. Perhaps he was already married with children elsewhere?
2.   There was a Mr. MORLEY around, who was the father to at least 2 of Frances’ children. The children started using their father’s surname Morley, and Frances decided to take that surname to cover up illegitimacy, and probably because she had given up with MARTYN by then.

It would be in your interest to find Frances and her children in the 1921 census to see how she records herself.

I would also be interested to see the record of Frances’ marriage in 1923 to Percy Painter, to know exactly how things are recorded. Her son Frank MORLEY is the witness “F J Morley”. It is quite possible that her father Stephen TAYLOR worked at some stage as a builder after we see him in the 1881 census, or at least that’s what France’s wanted to believe.

[softly softly]

Well well, Ladyhawk's post blows that theory out the water.

Another scenario.
Forget the marriage of Stephen Tayor too Martha Periera in 1867, they can be found in 1881 census.

Another marriage:

Stephen Taylor too Frances Mary Nicholson 25.12.1872. Image on Anc*. His occ Carpet Planner.

TAYLOR, FRANCES  MARY     NICHOLSON 
GRO Reference: 1876  M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL  Volume 01C  Page 358

Baptism image on Anc*

1881 census ref 440 24 7 occ carpet planner No Frances c1876 with family**

Piece   440
Folio   23
Page number   5
Household Members (Name)   Age   Relationship
Robert R. Nicholson
35   Head
Jane Nicholson
34   Wife
Sarah J. Nicholson
14   Daughter
Richard Nicholson
11   Son
Francis M. Taylor   5   Niece

By 1891 (ref 614 66 24) they have 6 children all with mmn Nicholson occ Carpet planner Frances with family

1901 ref 278 94 29 5 children  occ Carpet planner  Frances with family

1907 Frances Mary Taylor marries John Wilson. Her father Stephen Taylor occ Carpet Planner

John

Added Frances & John Wilson on 1911 census and 1939 war register

Possible death

Name:   Frances M Wilson
Death Age:   86
Birth Date:   abt 1876
Registration Date:   Apr 1962
[May 1962]
[Jun 1962]
Registration Quarter:   Apr-May-Jun
Registration District:   London City
Inferred County:   London
Volume:   5d
Page:   122

Probate for Frances Mary Wilson 1962, mentions son Robert Benjamin Wilson

[softly softly]

Mitche11, Along with other's we really wish you to solve this puzzle/mystery with and for you. May I ask how you have got back to a Frances Taylor with father Stephen. You have probably gone backwards from known info re more current rellies. Just where does Frances feature.

John

[Mitche11]

Frank Johnston Morley was born Frank Edwin Taylor on 8 April 1901 in Lambeth. Mother is Frances Taylor born about 1882 in Brixton, father is Frank Edwin Martin born about 1872 in Edinburgh.

I believe the parents of Frank Edwin Martin born 1872 are Francis Martin and Elizabeth Johnston but I am still trying to confirm that I have his correct parents.

Frank Edwin Martin and Frances Taylor did not marry but in 1923 Frances Taylor otherwise Morley married Percy Painter in Lambeth, they were both living at 3 Gresham Road, Brixton at time of marriage. Frances Taylor's father is Stephen Taylor, occupation: builder, he was deceased at time of marriage. Percy Painter's father is Albert Painter, occupation: Stoker (borough council). Witnesses to the marriage are F J Morley and May Painter. I am still researching Frances Taylor's family as the only information I have is her father is Stephen Taylor, occupation: builder.

Frances Taylor and Frank Edwin Martin had 4 children:
Frances Evelyn Taylor born 14 Aug 1899 • Wandsworth, Surrey, England
Frank Edwin Taylor born 8 Apr 1901 • Lambeth, London, England
Jean Taylor born 15 Feb 1907 • Wandsworth, London, England
Ronald Douglas Martyn born Apr 1912 • Lambeth, London, England

Frank Edwin Taylor aka Frank Johnston Morley born 8 Apr 1901 married Lily Mary Annie Higgs in 1927 at St George Hanover Square London. Frank's occupation: engineer, residence: 23 Little Chester Street, his father is also given as Frank Johnston Morley but I believe this to be Frank Edwin Martin, occupation: Captain in the army, deceased at time of marriage. Witnesses to the marriage: Frances Painter (I believe Frances Painter is Frank's mother) and Percy Painter.

Frank Edwin Taylor aka Frank Johnston Morley and Lily Mary Annie Higgs had 4 children:
Joyce Edith Morley born Oct 1928 • Lambeth, London, England
Jean Morley born Jul 1931 • Lambeth, London, England
Douglas Frank Johnston Morley born 19 Jun 1934 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
Derrek Douglas Johnston Morley born 28 Jan 1937 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
They also had an adopted son: John Morley born about 1938 • Surrey, England. I have no other information on John Morley.

[Mitche11]

Well well, Ladyhawk's post blows that theory out the water.

Another scenario.
Forget the marriage of Stephen Tayor too Martha Periera in 1867, they can be found in 1881 census.

Another marriage:

Stephen Taylor too Frances Mary Nicholson 25.12.1872. Image on Anc*. His occ Carpet Planner.

TAYLOR, FRANCES  MARY     NICHOLSON 
GRO Reference: 1876  M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL  Volume 01C  Page 358

Baptism image on Anc*

1881 census ref 440 24 7 occ carpet planner No Frances c1876 with family**

Piece   440
Folio   23
Page number   5
Household Members (Name)   Age   Relationship
Robert R. Nicholson
35   Head
Jane Nicholson
34   Wife
Sarah J. Nicholson
14   Daughter
Richard Nicholson
11   Son
Francis M. Taylor   5   Niece

By 1891 (ref 614 66 24) they have 6 children all with mmn Nicholson occ Carpet planner Frances with family

1901 ref 278 94 29 5 children  occ Carpet planner  Frances with family

1907 Frances Mary Taylor marries John Wilson. Her father Stephen Taylor occ Carpet Planner

John

Added Frances & John Wilson on 1911 census and 1939 war register

Possible death

Name:   Frances M Wilson
Death Age:   86
Birth Date:   abt 1876
Registration Date:   Apr 1962
[May 1962]
[Jun 1962]
Registration Quarter:   Apr-May-Jun
Registration District:   London City
Inferred County:   London
Volume:   5d
Page:   122

Probate for Frances Mary Wilson 1962, mentions son Robert Benjamin Wilson

All the information I have that I know to be correct indicate that Frances was born between 1879 - 1889.