That 1585 Signature

[Llanfihangel]

Hi,

Here is the actual signature..

I have a document with the signature of a Gentleman in 1585 that I hope can be construed as David John Gllm. It is likely Gllm (Gwilym) because the document refers to the sale of a property by Thomas David Gllm, and David John's signature is one of the witnesses of the sale.

There was a Vicar of Merthyr Cynog called David John Gwilym in 1614, and maybe they are the same person.

I would very much appreciate any comments on the signature. I am attaching the witness signatures. They make good reading for followers of the gentry in that part of Breconshire!

Many Thanks for your attention,

LLanfi 

[Watson]

It looks like David ap Joans Gllm.

[arthurk]

I can't make out 'ap' there, but I'm not very familiar with Welsh records so might not have recognised it.

What I think I can see for the middle name is Joan[ni]s, which would be Latin for 'of John'. It's quite a stylised signature, so the last part is tricky, but I think it could well be Gllm (for Gwillym etc).

Whether this is the same David John Gwillym who was vicar in 1614 can't be determined from this document alone, though the use of Latin would suggest someone educated. And a vicar would be the sort of person who might witness a document, but note that John Lewes called himself Clerke, and this one didn't.

Otherwise, do you have any idea when the vicar chap was born - in other words, was he of an age to be likely to be witnessing a document in 1585? And do you know when he became vicar there? If it was after 1585, might he nevertheless have been in the area some time earlier?

[Raybistre]

Think the signature outlined in red is maybe David Johns with an abreviation for Clericus or Cleric. I might be wrong. Ray

[arthurk]

Think the signature outlined in red is maybe David Johns with an abreviation for Clericus or Cleric. I might be wrong. Ray

That occurred to me too, and it might be correct. On balance, I thought the initial letter of Gwillym/Clericus might be a bit too grand for a C - but with so much ornamentation, who knows?

[Llanfihangel]

Hello All,

The original document was for Thomas David gllm.. note the name gllm (gwillam) has two "ll"s.

The Vicar of Merthyr Cynog called David John Gwilym in 1614 may be of a different family. since his  name has only one "l"

I found a much earlier Vicar of Merthyr Cynog in Theophilus Jones, copy attached. That name was gwillam with two ll's

Maybe this might help to decipher that squiggle, but I am grasping at straws and this is getting really obscure.

Please relax!

Many thanks,
 
Llanfi 

[arthurk]

The original document was for Thomas David gllm.. note the name gllm (gwillam) has two "ll"s.

The Vicar of Merthyr Cynog called David John Gwilym in 1614 may be of a different family. since his  name has only one "l"

I found a much earlier Vicar of Merthyr Cynog in Theophilus Jones, copy attached. That name was gwillam with two ll's

I know "ll" in Welsh isn't just a double "l", but since Gwillym and Gwilym are presumably variants of the same name, could they nevertheless be interchangeable?