Author Topic: Help with translation of Latin  (Read 644 times)

Offline sunnylew

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Help with translation of Latin
« on: Tuesday 27 June 23 00:10 BST (UK) »
Could somebody please give me a hand with a translation of the following latin from a 1217 Patent Roll?

I've used Google translate to get the gist, but the grammar in the result makes things a little confusing.

I think that Ranulf son of Robert might have had 5 daughters, 4 of whom are being released as hostages, while the 5th is still being held at the King's pleasure.

Latin:

3 Oct 1217

Rex  dilecto  et  fideli  suo  Briano  de  Insula,  salutem.  Sciatis  quod Rannulfus  filius  Roberti  venit  ad  fidem  et  servicium  nostrum,  propter quod  ei  reddidimus  filias  suas,  quas  pro  se  vobis  et  aliis  fidelibus  nostris obsides  liberavit,  preter  illam,  que  est  in  custodia  dilecti  et  fidelis  nostri R.  comitis  Cestrie,  de  qua  contenti  sumus  ut  ipsa  sua  obses  remaneat, quamdiu  nobis  placuerit.  Et  ideo  vobis  mandamus  quatinus  sine dilacione  eidem  Rannulfo  filiam  suam,  quam  habetis  in  custodia  vestra, liberari  faciatis  quietam.  Et  in  hujus  rei  etc.  Teste  eodem  comite, apud  Westmonasterium,  iij  die  Octobris.

Eodem  modo  mandatum  est  Hugoni  de  Bailloel  pro  Rannulfo  filio Roberti.

Eodem  modo  mandatum  est  W.  comiti  Abbamarle  pro  Rannulfo filio  Roberti.

Eodem  modo  mandatum  est  Galfrido  de  Nevill  pro  Rannulfo  filio  Roberti.


Google Translate:


The King greets his beloved and faithful Brian de Insula. Know that Ranulf the son of Robert has come to our credit and service, because we have given him his daughters, whom he delivered as hostages for you and our other faithful hostages, save for the one who is in the custody of our beloved and faithful R. Earl of Chester, of whom we are content. that she may remain her hostage as long as it pleases us. And therefore we order you that without delay you may make that Ranulf his daughter, whom you have in your custody, to be freed and quiet. And in this thing etc. Witnessed by the same earl at Westminster, 3 October.

And the same is directed to Hugh de Bailloel for Ranulf son of Robert.

And the same is directed to W Count Abbamarle for Ranulf son of Robert.

And the same is directed to Galfrido de Nevill for Ranulf son of Robert.
Anything in Hethersett, Norfolk
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Offline HistoricalGenealogy

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Re: Help with translation of Latin
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 27 June 23 03:32 BST (UK) »
October 3, 1217

The king to his beloved and faithful Brian of the Island, greetings. Know that Ranulf, son of Robert, has come into our loyalty and service. Therefore, we have returned his daughters to him, whom he had delivered to you and our other faithful as hostages on his behalf, except for the one who is under the custody of our beloved and faithful R., Earl of Chester, with whom we are satisfied to keep her as his hostage as long as we please. And therefore, we command you that without delay, you cause the daughter of the aforementioned Ranulf, whom you have in your custody, to be released unharmed. And in this matter, etc. Witnessed by the same earl, at Westminster, on the third day of October.

In the same manner, a command was given to Hugh de Balliol, for Ranulf, son of Robert.

In the same manner, a command was given to W., Earl of Abermarle, for Ranulf, son of Robert.

In the same manner, a command was given to Geoffrey de Neville, for Ranulf, son of Robert.

Offline arthurk

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Re: Help with translation of Latin
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 27 June 23 11:36 BST (UK) »
I'm not familiar with this kind of document, but a couple of thoughts:

The R. between nostri and comitis Cestrie has been treated as belonging to comitis Cestrie, but I wonder if it should go with nostri instead. R. is often an abbreviation for Rex (King); it's tricky to render that alongside 'our', so perhaps something like 'of us the King'.

I'd also query the exact rendering of eidem Rannulfo filiam suam. eidem Rannulfo is dative, so I think it's requiring the daughter to be returned 'to the same Ranulf'.

Offline GR2

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Re: Help with translation of Latin
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 27 June 23 13:04 BST (UK) »
The Earl of Chester in 1217 was called Ranulf, so the R is probably an abbreviation of that.


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help with translation of Latin
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 27 June 23 16:18 BST (UK) »
As I see it, there are two different people named Ranulf here:

(1) Ranulf, son of Robert, whose daughters are at issue; and

(2) Ranulf, Earl of Chester (R. comitis Cestrie). I think he is not the 4th Earl (as linked in reply #1, who was dead long before 1217), but his grandson Ranulf de Blundeville, the 6th Earl.

The point is that the four daughters of Ranulf son of Robert were being held by four different knights, to serve as pledges for Ranulf’s loyalty to the king. Now that he has proved his loyalty in the king’s service, these four daughters are to be released back to him immediately, under the four separate mandates being issued here. But Ranulf’s 5th daughter is to remain in the custody of Ranulf, Earl of Chester, for as long as the king wishes.

I believe Brian de Insula is not usually rendered ‘Brian of the Island’, but Brian de l’Isle, or Brian de Lisle.

Offline sunnylew

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Re: Help with translation of Latin
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 27 June 23 22:42 BST (UK) »
Thank you for all of your help guys.

I had thought Ranulf's daughters were the hostages, but had a sudden fear I'd mixed things up and he  was holding hostages of the others' daughters instead.

Ranulf son of Robert was lord of Middleham, and had sided with the Barons against King John. Finding his daughters was a complete surprise - especially there being 5 of them! As is the way of it, I'd only ever come across Ranulf's oldest son before this.

Anything in Hethersett, Norfolk
Buckenham and Variants in Norfolk and Suffolk.
Goodlad in Suffolk.
Palmer in Birmingham