Carroll family in London 1911 and earlier

[tjcazza]

Hi everyone,

My dad was adopted by George James Carroll (1928-1989) and his wife Kathleen (~1930-2020). George James had a sister, Olive (b.1930)

George James' parents are George Patrick Carroll (b.1895 or 1897 Stepney/North London) who married Eleanor Florence Casey (1902-1971) in 1927 in London. On the marriage certificate his father's name is given as Patrick Carroll. George Patrick also had a brother William Patrick Carroll (1897/1902-1977 born Islington/North London, died Fareham). George Patrick's birth date is 1897 on the marriage certificate, but 1895 on his war record and a birth certificate I found online. William Patrick's birth date is listed as 1902, but another record could match him as a William Patrick Carroll was also b.1897 in North London. He could have potentially had a sister Sylvia (b.1901) however, the 1939 England and Wales Register which lists George James and Olive living in Somerset with "Sylvia Carroll", has been struck through and replaced with the details of Eleanor Florence, their mother, instead.

I can't find any sign of George Patrick and William Patrick with their father Patrick together on the 1901 or 1911 census via Ancestry, with or without including Sylvia. I've ran searches using barebones details like only first names, initials, no initials, even just searching for George and William together with no father's name, and no combination matching them has ever come up. I'm not sure if they were out of the country, their father had a different name, but if William Patrick was born 1902, they would had to have returned to England just for his birth, then left again, before returning after WW1. If he was born 1897 however, they could have left for a longer period and only returned after WW1.

If anyone can help crack this mystery I'd be very grateful!

[tjcazza]

I can't seem to edit the post but George James could have had a sister Sylvia (b.1933-35) also.

[Neale1961]

Regarding the 1939 register. I would say the closed record is for Sylvia (1935) as she may still be alive. It looks as if there was an error entering the mother’s name (instead writing the child’s name) and it has been corrected to Eleanor F.

[Neale1961]

Royal Navy Seaman’s register:
George Patrick Carroll – birth 24 Feb 1895 Stepney.
He was in the navy for 12 yrs.


Possible birth registration
CARROLL, GEORGE  PATRICK              Mother’s maiden name EVANS 
GRO Reference: 1895  J Quarter in WHITECHAPEL  Volume 01C  Page 261


Birth registration for brother (different mother?)
CARROLL, WILLIAM  PATRICK     Mother’s name LEAHY 
GRO Reference: 1897  D Quarter in STEPNEY  Volume 01C  Page 383

[curtainhooks]

I saw that birth too Neale, but it seems as if that George Patrick Carroll's Dad is called George, not Patrick when looking at the 1901 census...
They are at 114 Wellington Road in Islington.
This George with mothers maiden ''Evans'' had these siblings on the census: Elizabeth (1893) and Thomas Oliver (1897) - no sign of the William Patrick Carroll if he was born before 1901, although you mention he could have been born in 1902.
Unless Patrick was a middle name of this George Carroll who appears to be the dad, then I don't think the birth record is your George Patrick Carroll....

[curtainhooks]

In 1911 the family are under ''Carrol'' and this George is now a ''Van-Boy'', his dad is still George - no middle name of Patrick shown or anything. There are now 3 more siblings: Sarah, Norah and James. I know this is probably not your George based on his Dad's name being George not Patrick, but just trying to disprove a birth record  Will keep looking

Do you know what occupation George gave his Dad (Patrick) as having on the marriage certificate?

[tjcazza]

In 1911 the family are under ''Carrol'' and this George is now a ''Van-Boy'', his dad is still George - no middle name of Patrick shown or anything. There are now 3 more siblings: Sarah, Norah and James. I know this is probably not your George based on his Dad's name being George not Patrick, but just trying to disprove a birth record  Will keep looking

Do you know what occupation George gave his Dad (Patrick) as having on the marriage certificate?

on George Patrick's marriage certificate, it says Patrick is a dock labourer, presumably working with Eleanor Florence Casey's father Robert Edward Casey, they both have the same occupation listed and their residences are on the same road, the witnesses are two of Ellen Florence Casey's uncles, George and Harold Drake, brothers of her mother Sarah Ann Drake.

George Patrick's occupation is also listed as "seaman", and from what my dad has said, George James followed him into the docks at the age of 16, so I imagine George Patrick worked the docks since leaving service

edit: the street address was 46 Schoolhouse Lane Buildings for George Patrick, and 38 for Eleanor Florence. In 1925, it lists an Elizabeth and William Jarvis at 46, but Robert Casey is registered at 38 along with John Edwards and Sarah Ann Edwards. Not sure why Sarah Ann Drake is now Edwards.

[jorose]

Query:
Where are George Patrick and brother William Patrick in 1939?

Was the marriage of George Patrick at an Anglican or Catholic church, or was it a register marriage?

If William is the one in Fareham in 1939 then he married there as plain William Carroll in 1927.
Have you checked what details are given on this record?

I would also be very careful about presuming things like this:

Patrick is a dock labourer, presumably working with Eleanor Florence Casey's father Robert Edward Casey, they both have the same occupation listed and their residences are on the same road

The residence given was the residence of George Patrick - he might just have been renting a room from the Jarvis family. There's no indication that Patrick was working in the same area, resident at the same address, or even alive.

We don't even know if Patrick existed from the marriage certificate alone, there are plenty of examples of people simply making up a father for the wedding day.  Would certainly explain why he's so hard to find!

[Neale1961]

George Patrick Carroll marriage 28th Aug 1927 at St James (C of E), Ratcliffe, Tower hamlets
Age 30, bachelor, seaman, 46 Schoolhouse lane buildings, father Patrick Carroll – dock labourer
Eileen Florence Casey, age 25, spinster, tin box hand 38 school house land buildings, father Robert Edward Casey – dock labourer
Witnesses_ George Drake, Harold Drake