Author Topic: 1735 French baptism  (Read 348 times)

Offline goldie61

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1735 French baptism
« on: Saturday 16 September 23 22:41 BST (UK) »
I’d be grateful for help with a couple of words and meanings in this 1735  baptism from Hyon, near Mons, now in Belgium.

At the end of line 2, ‘par la sage femme’ I take to mean he was baptised by the midwife.

Line 3 ‘et le 25 fut rebaptisé ??’

The godfather André Danyer is given as an ‘homme mariez’ - a married man?
And I think the ‘dmt’ must be an abbreviation for ‘demeurant’.

The godmother Marie Catherine Danyer is given as a  ‘fille a marier’ - does this mean an unmarried girl?
And I cannot make out the name of the place she lives.

I love their signatures!
I’ve been able to find several records with these same signatures on, helping to build up the family at this time.


Added:
Going through some other baptisms, I think the word at the end of Line 3 is probably a version of 'susc(eperun)t' - 'they held', which I see from previous help here on Rootschat would have meant 'held to the font'.
Is that a possibility?
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Isabel H

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 17 September 23 09:04 BST (UK) »
I agree with your interpretation on all except the bit at the end of line 3, which I think says "sous condition".

Larousse online french dictionary has this:
Sacrement sous condition, avec une restriction dans la pensée de celui qui l'administre, de sorte que celui-ci ne soit pas conféré si la condition posée n'est pas accomplie  - sacrament with a restriction in the mind of the person administering it, such that it would not be conferred if the condition is not met.

An emergency baptism of a newborn by the midwife, followed by an official one by the priest "sous condition." I'm not sure why the priest would impose conditions.

I can't make out the place name for the godmother.
GRAY - Inveresk; Lanarkshire
LINDSAY - Lanarkshire
PURDIE - Lanarkshire; W. Lothian
POZZI - Elgin; Lancashire
MACKENZIE, MORISON - Isle of Lewis
ARCHIBALD, HAY, HUNTER, SNADDON - Clackmannanshire
COXON, HALL, JACKSON, SHOTTON - Northumberland

Offline Isabel H

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 17 September 23 09:35 BST (UK) »
The place name looks to me like Erbiseux.  Perhaps Erbisœul, north of Mons on Google maps?
GRAY - Inveresk; Lanarkshire
LINDSAY - Lanarkshire
PURDIE - Lanarkshire; W. Lothian
POZZI - Elgin; Lancashire
MACKENZIE, MORISON - Isle of Lewis
ARCHIBALD, HAY, HUNTER, SNADDON - Clackmannanshire
COXON, HALL, JACKSON, SHOTTON - Northumberland

Offline Zefiro

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 17 September 23 11:40 BST (UK) »

An emergency baptism of a newborn by the midwife, followed by an official one by the priest "sous condition." I'm not sure why the priest would impose conditions.


The priest didn't impose conditions. You should understand this as following:
A child could not be baptized twice. In the event that there was doubt about the validity or completeness of the emergency baptism administered, the Catholic Church allowed 'to be on the safe side' to have the baptism performed 'under condition' or 'sub conditione', by a priest .
In short: The child was baptized by the priest under the condition "If you have not been baptized before, I baptize you now.


Offline Zefiro

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 17 September 23 12:05 BST (UK) »
L'an 1735 le 24e Novembre sur les 5 heures et
demie du soir fut à la maison né et baptizé par la sage
femme de Ciply et le 25 fut rebaptizé soubs
condition André Joseph Danyer, fils legitime
de Arnould et de Marie Joseph Wuatiez;
parrain fut André Danyier, homme mariez
demeurant à Glin, marraine Marie Catherinne
Danyer, fille à marier demeurante à Erbiseux.
Il est ainsi ce qu'attestent les soubsignez.
Arnoul Danhier
André Danhier
M. A. Vigneren curé de Hyon

The place name looks to me like Erbiseux.  Perhaps Erbisœul, north of Mons on Google maps?

I agree with that.


At the end of line 2, ‘par la sage femme’ I take to mean he was baptised by the midwife. Correct!
Line 3 ‘et le 25 fut rebaptisé ??’ Correct!

The godfather André Danyer is given as an ‘homme mariez’ - a married man? Correct!
And I think the ‘dmt’ must be an abbreviation for ‘demeurant’. Correct!

The godmother Marie Catherine Danyer is given as a  ‘fille a marier’ - does this mean an unmarried girl? unmarried woman (girl implies a younger age, which is not necessarily the case)


Offline goldie61

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 17 September 23 22:24 BST (UK) »
Many thanks Isabel and Zefiro.

One supposes he was baptised by the midwife straight after birth because it was considered he might not live very long.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Online joger

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #6 on: Monday 18 September 23 08:48 BST (UK) »
Hello,
More precisely the boy was " ondoyé" by the midwife ( who could not really baptize a child in danger of death though the priest here writes he was ´ baptized' ,midwives could make an "ondoiement "in this case . Should the child die ,he or she could go to heaven. But the priest had to baptize the child quickly after the "ondoiement " , this kind of baptism was called "sous condition" ( sous condition que l'enfant ait eu un moment de vie à la naissance, under condition that the child was alive at birth, even shortly.) Why so?  Because baptism is given only to living persons.

Offline goldie61

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #7 on: Monday 18 September 23 22:44 BST (UK) »
Hi joger
Many thanks for your insight about this.
Does this still hold good now, or have things changed over the 300 years, (nearly), since this baptism took place?


Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

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Re: 1735 French baptism
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 19 September 23 08:44 BST (UK) »
After having searched more infos concerning catholic baptism in France nowadays I can say what follows : 
The parents who want to have a child baptized must contact the priest , or deacon or the team in charge of preparation to baptism , 2 meetings before the baptism and usually the baptism takes  place 3 months later.
Nowadays believers's faith is no longer naive like in the preceding centuries.

The "ondoiement" can still be done ( not by midwives , but by the religious staff of the hospital). But it is not often asked for .