Author Topic: Are these signatures the same man?  (Read 1147 times)

Offline GillianF

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Are these signatures the same man?
« on: Saturday 23 September 23 14:22 BST (UK) »
I have had a long standing mystery in the family.  My grandmother-in-law married Thomas James Fleming in 1910.  They had a son in 1911 but seem to cease being a couple some time after then.  Grandmother went on to have another son in 1923 and lived with him as man and wife although he constantly changed his first names around and sometimes used her married name as his own - significantly on the 1923 birth certificate.  The 1939 Registration confirmed they had not married and Thomas Fleming was living in the north with another woman.

I have tracked their separate lives and now come to 1921.

So, do you think the signatures on this 1910 marriage certificate and the 1921 census are one and the same man?

Thanks for looking.


Gillian

Offline ptdrifter

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 23 September 23 14:40 BST (UK) »
Just my opinion, but I'd say no similar letterforms or writing style, so looks like two different hands to me.
Stevens, Pye  East London

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 23 September 23 14:44 BST (UK) »
No, but your 1910 marriage record looks like it could be a transcribed copy, from the little we can see of it. If so you would need to inspect the original register page (or request a copy of the page from the Register Office).
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline ptdrifter

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 23 September 23 14:48 BST (UK) »
Well spotted ShaunJ
Stevens, Pye  East London


Offline GillianF

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 23 September 23 15:38 BST (UK) »
Interesting.  I have looked at the paper copy (certified copy - green) which I have and you may be right that it is a transcribed version as the signature of the witness (Teresa Fleming) looks very similar to the groom's signature.

So, this is all new to me.  How do I know if this is not the original with original signatures and how do I apply for it please?

Thanks.


Gillian

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 23 September 23 16:14 BST (UK) »
That's definitely a transcribed copy.

The question now is - where is the original register?

The Lambeth RO website just refers historic enquiries to the GRO which is presumably where you started.  https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/births-deaths-ceremonies-citizenship/buy-certificate-copies/certificates-you-can-order-us

You might need to make some phone calls to progress this, to trace the register and/or to specify that you want a copy of the original register page.

I don't suppose you have his signature from the 1911 census?

UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline GillianF

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 23 September 23 17:15 BST (UK) »
OK.  I can make some calls.  Any ideas where I would start?

And, I do have the 1911 census - here.



Gillian

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 23 September 23 17:26 BST (UK) »
Hmm comparing 1911 and 1921 there are some big differences: the capital T and the final g are quite different:
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline dobfarm

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Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 24 September 23 02:22 BST (UK) »
Both signatures or the writing of the name, if they were written by the same person ? seems his writing changes in a short time.  1911c.
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth