Author Topic: Are these signatures the same man?  (Read 1148 times)

Offline GillianF

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 12 October 23 13:30 BST (UK) »
An Update:

I phoned Lambeth Register Office and listened to their recorded message.  It seems they do not, generally, speak to people so I sent an email to the address they gave me.  I asked if they could tell me where the original 1910 marriage certificate would be and how I could order it.  I got a reply today:

"The certificate provided is a copy of the original entry made, we do not replicate customers signatures, what is on the marriage certificate is the signature that was captured on the day by all parties involved."

I have replied to the effect that I would, politely, beg to differ.  Looking at the certificate I have (attached here) the whole thing has, in my view, almost certainly been written by the same hand.  If it was the original I would expect to see the main body in one hand and then four distinct signatures of bride, groom and two witnesses.

I await their further thoughts ...................

Offline Jebber

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,376
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 12 October 23 14:02 BST (UK) »
Because the marriage took place in the Register Office, Unless you can get Lambeth Register Office to send you a photo copy of the original, you are stuck as they hold the original. Unlike church records which are often deposited in the County Archives.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline GillianF

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 12 October 23 14:22 BST (UK) »
I am asking the lady that replied to me to look again at the certificate I have sent and agree with me that the whole thing is almost certainly written by the same hand and, therefore, a copy and not the original.  I have pointed out the similarity in style of handwriting, particular letters etc.  I will wait .............

Offline arthurk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,182
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 12 October 23 15:46 BST (UK) »
The certificate that you have was issued by the GRO, and as such it is definitely a copy of the register. Note the wording: "Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of Marriages..." The 'certified copy' was a handwritten copy of the latest entries in the register made every three months by those who had custody of marriage registers, ie clergy and superintendent registrars. These quarterly returns were collated in district register offices and forwarded to the GRO, and they are what the GRO use (usually via photocopy) to produce marriage certificates such as this one.

What you need to be clarifying with Lambeth Register Office is whether they can issue a marriage certificate which contains an actual image (photocopy) of the original register in their custody. The answer you have received ("The certificate provided is a copy of the original entry made, we do not replicate customers signatures, what is on the marriage certificate is the signature that was captured on the day by all parties involved") seems to say that they can (in the part I've made bold). I'm not sure what they mean by 'replicate customers signatures' - possibly that they don't write them out by hand and try to imitate the original signatures?
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline GillianF

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 12 October 23 16:39 BST (UK) »
Arthurk wrote:  "Note the wording: "Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of Marriages..."

My thoughts exactly - it is clearly a copy and not the original with the signatures of the bride, groom etc.

I will persist with asking for the original when they reply again.

Thank you.

Offline GillianF

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #14 on: Friday 13 October 23 11:21 BST (UK) »
Another Update:

I have had a reply this morning from Lambeth Register Office by someone with the job title of Registration Officer.

"As previously advised by my Team Leader Samantha Edwards, ‘the certificate provided is a copy of the original entry made, we do not replicate customers signatures, what is on the marriage certificate is the signature that was captured on the day by all parties involved’."

So, they insist this is the document signed on the day.  But, I just can't get past the similarity of signatures to each other and to the handwriting used to fill in all the other detail.  Is it me??

Online ShaunJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,101
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #15 on: Friday 13 October 23 11:30 BST (UK) »
They are wrong aren't they. It's clearly a handwritten copy.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline arthurk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,182
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #16 on: Friday 13 October 23 11:48 BST (UK) »
No, Lambeth aren't wrong, because the certificate you have isn't anything to do with them, except insofar as it was produced from a handwritten copy (quarterly return) that they sent to the GRO just after the end of March 1911.

Lambeth Register Office no longer have access to that handwritten copy because it's been at the GRO for the past 112 years. What they do have is the original register, with the actual signatures of the parties concerned.

So while the information on the certificate that they produce should be the same as on the one from the GRO, what they have told you is that they will send you one with an image of the actual register page, including all the original signatures ("a copy of the original entry made"... "the signature that was captured on the day by all parties involved").

To put it another way, in case it's still not clear: the register is at Lambeth Register Office, and the handwritten copy is at the GRO. The GRO can't produce a marriage certificate with original signatures because they don't have them. However, Lambeth Register Office say they can.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online ShaunJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,101
    • View Profile
Re: Are these signatures the same man?
« Reply #17 on: Friday 13 October 23 12:05 BST (UK) »
Quote
The GRO can't produce a marriage certificate with original signatures because they don't have them. However, Lambeth Register Office say they can.

But Lambeth RO are insisting that the obvious copy is an image of the original register !
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk