Author Topic: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605  (Read 652 times)

Offline Gortinanima

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Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« on: Tuesday 24 October 23 21:43 BST (UK) »
The will of Janet Bog sometime spouse of David Rynd, flesher in Perth
1605

I cannot read any of this -

I only want the basic details and if children are mentioned -

Would be grateful for help

Offline Gortinanima

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 24 October 23 21:44 BST (UK) »
Part Two

Offline goldie61

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 28 October 23 22:45 BST (UK) »
The Scottish experts have not picked this up so I have made a start on what I can see.

The Testament dative for Janet Bog starts near the bottom of page 1. The last paragraph.

The testament dative and Inventar of the goudes gear sowmes
of mony and dettis p(er)tendg to umquille Jonet bog In tyme
spous to david Rynd fleshe(r) in p(er)th the tyme of hir decese
quha decessit in the moneth of August the zeir of god
jajvj t three zeirs ffaylie mad & gevin up be the said

(second page)
david Rynd hir spouse .... & .... administ..
to Wm Johnne & Issabell Ryndes the(ir) ane bairns*
execu(tors) datives surrogate to the said umquile ..... in place
of the ......  be decernit of the .... of .....  hir
the said deceid of the date .... the .... day of
July the zeir of god jaj vj t fyve zeirs at length?
proportis

In the first the said umquille Jonet bog & hir said spous had the
gouds gear sowmes of mony and detts …….
.....
Viz Item in the  barne & loft xl boll malt price of the
boll iij li Inde jt  Lx li Item in utenceills & domicilis w(it)h
the abulzeirments of hir bodie estimat to xl  li
   Sidma of the Inventare                  ij t li
   followis  the dettis awand to the decd

Item th(ere) was awin to the said unquile Jonet bog & hir said spous
be Thomas snord (?) in ........
Item be Andro Ramson .......
Item be bessie ?                              Item be
Mr Alex Roine  Minist(er) at tallamure(?) xx lii Item be david
barelan                 Item be gilbert g?
.........
              Sida of the Inventar w(it)h the dettis - vij t Lxxxxv li vj d 8 d
             followis the dettis awin be the decd
Item    be the  said umquile Jonet bog & hir said
spous to Walta allman maltman in P(er)th
Item  to James Higgonn in Kilgorstoun
       Sida of the detts awin be the decd  - j t xxxiij li vj s 8 d
Restis of free gere the dettis deductit - vj t Lxij li
To be dividit in three p(ar)tis decds p(ar)tis  - ij t xx li 14s 4d
............

Not finished.

*  I think this is what this says!
I hope a Scottish expert will be along to verify and fill in all the gaps.


Umquile - late, deceased
quha - who
zeir - year
ffaylie - faithfully
utencills and domicillis - household goods
abulzeiments - apparel
awand - owing
Inde - hence
Sidma - this looks like ‘Sidma’ but is usually ‘Summa’ - the total/sum.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Gortinanima

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 28 October 23 23:16 BST (UK) »
The Scottish experts have not picked this up so I have made a start on what I can see.

The Testament dative for Janet Bog starts near the bottom of page 1. The last paragraph.

The testament dative and Inventar of the goudes gear sowmes
of mony and dettis p(er)tendg to umquille Jonet bog In tyme
spous to david Rynd fleshe(r) in p(er)th the tyme of hir decese
quha decessit in the moneth of August the zeir of god
jajvj t three zeirs ffaylie mad & gevin up be the said

(second page)
david Rynd hir spouse .... & .... administ..
to Wm Johnne & Issabell Ryndes the(ir) ane bairns*
execu(tors) datives surrogate to the said umquile ..... in place
of the ......  be decernit of the .... of .....  hir
the said deceid of the date .... the .... day of
July the zeir of god jaj vj t fyve zeirs at length?
proportis

In the first the said umquille Jonet bog & hir said spous had the
gouds gear sowmes of mony and detts …….
.....
Viz Item in the  barne & loft xl boll malt price of the
boll iij li Inde jt  Lx li Item in utenceills & domicilis w(it)h
the abulzeirments of hir bodie estimat to xl  li
   Sidma of the Inventare                  ij t li
   followis  the dettis awand to the decd

Item th(ere) was awin to the said unquile Jonet bog & hir said spous
be Thomas snord (?) in ........
Item be Andro Ramson .......
Item be bessie ?                              Item be
Mr Alex Roine  Minist(er) at tallamure(?) xx lii Item be david
barelan                 Item be gilbert g?
.........
              Sida of the Inventar w(it)h the dettis - vij t Lxxxxv li vj d 8 d
             followis the dettis awin be the decd
Item    be the  said umquile Jonet bog & hir said
spous to Walta allman maltman in P(er)th
Item  to James Higgonn in Kilgorstoun
       Sida of the detts awin be the decd  - j t xxxiij li vj s 8 d
Restis of free gere the dettis deductit - vj t Lxij li
To be dividit in three p(ar)tis decds p(ar)tis  - ij t xx li 14s 4d
............

Not finished.

*  I think this is what this says!
I hope a Scottish expert will be along to verify and fill in all the gaps.


Umquile - late, deceased
quha - who
zeir - year
ffaylie - faithfully
utencills and domicillis - household goods
abulzeiments - apparel
awand - owing
Inde - hence
Sidma - this looks like ‘Sidma’ but is usually ‘Summa’ - the total/sum.

Wonderful thank you for take the time to decipher the will. It really is like Egyptian hieroglyphics to me.

Looks like there was only one child Isobel Rynds spouse of William Johne.


Offline GR2

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 29 October 23 01:19 GMT (UK) »
As usual, goldie61 has made a good start. This is the first part of it (minus some names):

In the margin: Jonet Bog Secundo Augusti (Latin for 2nd August) 1605

The testament dative and Inve[n]tar of ye guidis (= goods) geir sowmes (= sums)
of money and dettis (= debts) p[er]tein[in]g to umq[uhi]le (= the late) Jonet bog su[m]tyme
spous to david rynd flesher in p[er]th ye tyme of hir deceiss
quha (= who) deceissit in ye moneth of August ye zeir (pronounced "yeir" = year) of god
Jaj vj c thrie  (= 1603) zeiris ffay[thful]lie maid & gevin (= given) up be (= by) ye said
david rynd hir spous as fader (= father) & Lau[fu]ll administrator
to W[illia]m Johnne & Issobell rynds y[ai]r (= their) lau[fu]ll bairns &
exe[cuto]r datives (the s on the end of dative is a mistake) surrogat to ye said umq[uhi]le
                                                                                                     moder (= mother) in place
of ye p[rocurato]r fischall (= fiscal) be (= by) decreit (= decree) of ye c[om]missar of e[dinbu]r[gh]
                                                                                                                                           as
ye samy[n] (= the same) decreit of ye dait at e[dinbu]r[gh] ye nynt (= ninth) day of
July ye zeir of god Jaj vj c fyve (1605) zeiris at lent[h] (= length)
proportis
In ye first ye said umq[uhi]le Jonet bog & hir said spous had ye
guids geir sowmes of mo[ne]y and dettis of ye availl (= value) & p[ry]ces
following p[er]tein[in]g to yame (pronounced "thame" = them) ye tyme of hir deceis foirsaid (=
                                                                                                                                 foresaid)
viz (Latin = namely) Item in ye barne & loft xl (= 40) bolls malt p[ry]ce of ye
boll iiij li. (= £4) Su[mm]a (= sum/total) j c Lx li. (= £160) Item in vtenceills (= utensils) &
                                                                            domicilis (= household furnishings) w(i)t(h)
ye abuilzementis (= clothing) of hir bodie estimat to xl li. (= £40)

Su[m]ma of ye Inve[n]tar (= inventory) ij c li. (= £200)

followis ye dettis awin (= owed) to ye deid (= dead person)

Item y[ai]r (= there) was awin to ye said umq[uhi]le Jonet bog & hir said spous
be (= by) thomas suord (= Sword) in [                  ] of borrowit (= borrowed) mo[ne]y xx li. (=
                                                                                                                                     £20)
Item be (= by) andro (= Andrew) ramsay in tibbermure (= Tibbermore) of borrowit mo[ne]y xx
                                                                                           m[er]ks ( = 20 merks = £13 6/8d)
Item be (= by) bessie [     ]in [        ] L m[er]ks (= 50 merks = £33 6/8d) Ite[m] be (= by)
Mr Alex[ande]r Zoung (= Young) minis[ter] at tibbermure xx li. (= £20) Ite[m] be (= by) david
barclay of [        ] j c xx m[er]ks (= 120 merks = £80) Item be (= by) gilbert gray of
[        ] ye sowme (= sum) of v c Lxxxxiij m[er]ks (= 593 merks = £395 6/8d)

Su[mm]a of ye dettis awin to ye deid v c Lxxxxv li. vj s 8d (= £595 6/8d)
Su[mm]a of ye Inve[n]tar w(i)t(h) ye dettis vij c Lxxxxv li. vj s 8d (= £795 6/8d)

Item y[ai]r (= there) was awin be (= by) ye said umq[uhi]le Jonet bog & hir said
spous to walter [     ]ma[n]  maltma[n] in p[er]th L m[er]kis (= 50 merks = £33 6/8d)
Item to James Huggoun in Kilgirstoun j c li. (= £100)

Su[mm]a of ye dettis awin be (= by) ye deid j c xxxiij li. vj s 8d (= £133 6/8d)
Restis (= rests/remains) of frie geir (= free gear) ye dettis deducit (= subtracted) vj c Lxij li. (=
                                                                                                                                    £662)
To be dividit in thrie p[air]tis, deids p[air]t* is ij c xx li. 14 s 4 d (= £220 14/4d)
Q[uhai]rof (= whereof) ye quot* is componit (= compounded) for vj li. (£6)

In the margin, in Latin: Quotta componitur [pro] vj li. (= the quot is compounded for £6)

* The value of the inventory is added to the amount of the debts owed to the deceased, then the amount of debts the deceased owes is subtracted. What is left is the "free gear" or net estate. Legally a third of this must go to the surviving spouse (here to David Rhynd) and another third goes to the children (here to William, John and Isobel). The remaining third is called the "deid's pairt" - the deceased's part - and can be willed in any way the deceased liked (although here it is a testament dative, in other words one that does not contain a will - Jonet had died without making a will). A portion (called the quot) of the deid's pairt is paid to the commissary court for confirming the testament. In this case £6 is agreed on for the quot.

Remember that all sums are in Scots money. The £ Scots was worth a twelfth of the £ Sterling.


Offline goldie61

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 29 October 23 02:31 GMT (UK) »

Wonderful thank you for take the time to decipher the will. It really is like Egyptian hieroglyphics to me.

Looks like there was only one child Isobel Rynds spouse of William Johne.

I was going to query why you thought Isabell Rynds was the spouse of William Johnne - as far as I could see it doesn't mention that, but thought I'd wait to see if a Scottish expert replied.
I see GR2 (THE expert in these things!  ;)), also thinks that the children of Janet Bog and David
Rynd are William, John and Isabell. Isabell is not married to a William Johnne.
This may well make a difference to your research.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Gortinanima

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 29 October 23 07:38 GMT (UK) »

Wonderful thank you for take the time to decipher the will. It really is like Egyptian hieroglyphics to me.

Looks like there was only one child Isobel Rynds spouse of William Johne.

I was going to query why you thought Isabell Rynds was the spouse of William Johnne - as far as I could see it doesn't mention that, but thought I'd wait to see if a Scottish expert replied.
I see GR2 (THE expert in these things!  ;)), also thinks that the children of Janet Bog and David
Rynd are William, John and Isabell. Isabell is not married to a William Johnne.
This may well make a difference to your research.

I see - because there was no comma between the William and Johne I interpreted it as William Johne and Isobel Rynd their lawful bairns.

Really appreciate your input

Offline Gortinanima

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 29 October 23 07:42 GMT (UK) »
As usual, goldie61 has made a good start. This is the first part of it (minus some names):

In the margin: Jonet Bog Secundo Augusti (Latin for 2nd August) 1605

The testament dative and Inve[n]tar of ye guidis (= goods) geir sowmes (= sums)
of money and dettis (= debts) p[er]tein[in]g to umq[uhi]le (= the late) Jonet bog su[m]tyme
spous to david rynd flesher in p[er]th ye tyme of hir deceiss
quha (= who) deceissit in ye moneth of August ye zeir (pronounced "yeir" = year) of god
Jaj vj c thrie  (= 1603) zeiris ffay[thful]lie maid & gevin (= given) up be (= by) ye said
david rynd hir spous as fader (= father) & Lau[fu]ll administrator
to W[illia]m Johnne & Issobell rynds y[ai]r (= their) lau[fu]ll bairns &
exe[cuto]r datives (the s on the end of dative is a mistake) surrogat to ye said umq[uhi]le
                                                                                                     moder (= mother) in place
of ye p[rocurato]r fischall (= fiscal) be (= by) decreit (= decree) of ye c[om]missar of e[dinbu]r[gh]
                                                                                                                                           as
ye samy[n] (= the same) decreit of ye dait at e[dinbu]r[gh] ye nynt (= ninth) day of
July ye zeir of god Jaj vj c fyve (1605) zeiris at lent[h] (= length)
proportis
In ye first ye said umq[uhi]le Jonet bog & hir said spous had ye
guids geir sowmes of mo[ne]y and dettis of ye availl (= value) & p[ry]ces
following p[er]tein[in]g to yame (pronounced "thame" = them) ye tyme of hir deceis foirsaid (=
                                                                                                                                 foresaid)
viz (Latin = namely) Item in ye barne & loft xl (= 40) bolls malt p[ry]ce of ye
boll iiij li. (= £4) Su[mm]a (= sum/total) j c Lx li. (= £160) Item in vtenceills (= utensils) &
                                                                            domicilis (= household furnishings) w(i)t(h)
ye abuilzementis (= clothing) of hir bodie estimat to xl li. (= £40)

Su[m]ma of ye Inve[n]tar (= inventory) ij c li. (= £200)

followis ye dettis awin (= owed) to ye deid (= dead person)

Item y[ai]r (= there) was awin to ye said umq[uhi]le Jonet bog & hir said spous
be (= by) thomas suord (= Sword) in [                  ] of borrowit (= borrowed) mo[ne]y xx li. (=
                                                                                                                                     £20)
Item be (= by) andro (= Andrew) ramsay in tibbermure (= Tibbermore) of borrowit mo[ne]y xx
                                                                                           m[er]ks ( = 20 merks = £13 6/8d)
Item be (= by) bessie [     ]in [        ] L m[er]ks (= 50 merks = £33 6/8d) Ite[m] be (= by)
Mr Alex[ande]r Zoung (= Young) minis[ter] at tibbermure xx li. (= £20) Ite[m] be (= by) david
barclay of [        ] j c xx m[er]ks (= 120 merks = £80) Item be (= by) gilbert gray of
[        ] ye sowme (= sum) of v c Lxxxxiij m[er]ks (= 593 merks = £395 6/8d)

Su[mm]a of ye dettis awin to ye deid v c Lxxxxv li. vj s 8d (= £595 6/8d)
Su[mm]a of ye Inve[n]tar w(i)t(h) ye dettis vij c Lxxxxv li. vj s 8d (= £795 6/8d)

Item y[ai]r (= there) was awin be (= by) ye said umq[uhi]le Jonet bog & hir said
spous to walter [     ]ma[n]  maltma[n] in p[er]th L m[er]kis (= 50 merks = £33 6/8d)
Item to James Huggoun in Kilgirstoun j c li. (= £100)

Su[mm]a of ye dettis awin be (= by) ye deid j c xxxiij li. vj s 8d (= £133 6/8d)
Restis (= rests/remains) of frie geir (= free gear) ye dettis deducit (= subtracted) vj c Lxij li. (=
                                                                                                                                    £662)
To be dividit in thrie p[air]tis, deids p[air]t* is ij c xx li. 14 s 4 d (= £220 14/4d)
Q[uhai]rof (= whereof) ye quot* is componit (= compounded) for vj li. (£6)

In the margin, in Latin: Quotta componitur [pro] vj li. (= the quot is compounded for £6)

* The value of the inventory is added to the amount of the debts owed to the deceased, then the amount of debts the deceased owes is subtracted. What is left is the "free gear" or net estate. Legally a third of this must go to the surviving spouse (here to David Rhynd) and another third goes to the children (here to William, John and Isobel). The remaining third is called the "deid's pairt" - the deceased's part - and can be willed in any way the deceased liked (although here it is a testament dative, in other words one that does not contain a will - Jonet had died without making a will). A portion (called the quot) of the deid's pairt is paid to the commissary court for confirming the testament. In this case £6 is agreed on for the quot.

Remember that all sums are in Scots money. The £ Scots was worth a twelfth of the £ Sterling.

Thankyou so much for taking the time to translate the will and explaining things. It is very much appreciated.

Offline GR2

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Re: Scottish will of Janet Bog 1605
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 29 October 23 09:57 GMT (UK) »
The final section is just the standard legalese where Mr John Arthor confirms everything. The last two lines say

Q[uhai]rvpoun (= whereupon) henry balnavys burges of p[er]th Is
becu[m] cautiounar as ane act beirs (= is become cautioner as an act bears)

Executors of testaments had to provide a cautioner (in this case Henry Balneaves, burgess of Perth) who would become surety for their carrying out the duties of executor properly.

Re the three children. You'll notice that it says"W[illia]m Johnne & Issobell rynds y[ai]r (= their) lau[fu]ll bairns". Because there is more than one child, the surname is not given as "rynd" in the singular, but as "rynds" in the plural. That's the normal Scots usage.

You will also see that capital letters are not consistently used and there is often little, if any punctuation at this period, especially in legal documents.