The Harper / Riley family difficulty.

[kevshae]

Thank you anyone offering help.
I have worked on this dead-end for a long time.

Looking for the parents, birth / baptism and death of William Harper born 1857 possibly Rotherham or Barnsley Yorkshire.
He married Betsey Riley 24th May 1885 at St. Mary's church in Barnsley. His father is George Harper a miner and deceased on the certificate.
William's age at the time of marriage meant he was born in 1857, but where? I can find no William Harper with father George on any census nor a baptism.

I thought since Betsey and family were from Rotherham, maybe William was also and they met there and moved to Ardsley / Stairfoot.

What is confusing is that when Betsey then married George Langley 6th July 1891 in Wombwell the certificate states she is 'widow' yet on Sarah Elizabeth Harper's marriage certificate (William and Betsey's daughter) who married in1904 in Barnsley, Sarah names William Harper a miner as her father but nothing about him being deceased.

The 1891 census was taken 15th April 1891 and shows Betsey HARPER was married and living with her parents and not with William (where was he at that time?), yet less than three months later she married George Langley. Seems George and Betsey maybe were seeing each other before then since on the 1891 census George Langley and mother Annis lived just a street over from the Rileys.

 We do know William was of course alive at least 9 months before his last daughter Gertrude was born in 1888...in Wombwell.   

Discounting that daughter Sarah Elizabeth didn't state that her father was deceased when she married in 1904 but that Betsey was a widow already in 1891 then one would assume that William must have died 'sometime' between 1888 (Gertrude's birth) and 1891 when Betsey remarried.
           It's a possibility Williams birth / baptism and also death were not recorded.
      I would so appreciate a clue. Thank you. ps. my attachments were apparently too large.
                           Kevin.

[KGarrad]

What is confusing is that when Betsey then married George Langley 6th July 1891 in Wombwell the certificate states she is 'widow' yet on Sarah Elizabeth Harper's marriage certificate (William and Betsey's daughter) who married in1904 in Barnsley, Sarah names William Harper a miner as her father but nothing about him being deceased.

The absence of the word "deceased" does NOT imply that William was alive at the time of his daughter's marriage.
Simply that the relevant question wasn't asked, or that the answer wasn't recorded.

[Spelk]

Gertrude may not have been the child of William. Have you DNA evidence?
PS
If William was illegitimate he would be likely to just invent a father to hide the fact. He could also have lied about his age if he was significantly older than his bride.
What was Williams occupation?

[Kloumann]

There was a William Harper, age 12, on 1861 census in Worsbrough, father, George, Coal miner, age 42.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KQ-GQ8

Births of William & brother, Joseph registered in Ecclefield., MMN Johnson

Marriage of George to Elizabeth Johnson, 1841

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:66GG-FBSP

George died, age 50, in 1870, Worsbrough.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6618-FM9V

On 1871 census, William, age 22, single, a miner, lodging with Wm Harper & family

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZS-CT3

What was his occupation on marriage cert.?

[wivenhoe]

Ancestry West Yorkshire Church of England Marriages and Banns

24 May 1885 St Mary Barnsley
HARPER William   28y  bachelor  miner   res. Barnsley
Father: George HARPER (dec)  miner

RILEY Betsey  2y  spinster                      res. Barnsley
Father: William RILEY   miner

witnesses  John BRANSLEY   Hannah  RILEY  (X)

[Kloumann]

Unfortunately, the William born, 1848, died, Worsbrough, 1879. Wrong one.

[ColC]

This census on freecen whilst not quite right it might be worth a look, I cannot find a birth registration for the three children, or a suitable death for George?

1861 Potter Row, Leeds
HARPER   George   Head   M   M   34   Labourer   Yorkshire   Harrogate      
HARPER   Ann   Wife   M   F   32      Yorkshire   Leeds      
HARPER   Sarah A   Dau   -   F   13   Domestic Servant   Yorkshire   Leeds      
HARPER   Charlotte   Dau   -   F   10      Yorkshire   Leeds      
HARPER   William   Son   -   M   7      Yorkshire   Leeds      
STUBBS   William   Lodger   W   M   34   Cloth Dresser   Yorkshire   Worthey      

1871 Hillidge Road, Hunslet, Leeds
HARPER   Ann   Head   W   F   47   Washerwoman   Yorkshire   Leeds      
HARPER   Charlotte   Dau   U   F   19   Woollen Spinner   Yorkshire   Leeds      

Colin

[kevshae]

Thank you very much everyone who had taken time to help with William Harper.
There are pieces of information provided I hadn't found on ancestry or another site and Colin I hadn't heard of freecen. Thank you.

Yes William Harper was a miner, so was his father George.

Ggarrad- thanks for your input, yes understood that quite often, wrong details were given on birth, baptism and marriage certificates, in fact Betsey's second husband my 2nd great uncle George Langley, on their marriage cert. George's father is a GEORGE Langley (dec) miner, when in fact his father was Abraham Langley, miner from Belper who was buried in Worsborough in 1866.
     George and Betsey married July 6th 1891 in Wombwell (where Betsey family moved to in 1868 and I suspect is where William Harper died), and although George, born 1861 in Worsborough only knew Abraham his father for 4-5 years, George's mother Annis (Turner) lived 40 years after her husband Abraham died so why 'George' is listed as father to George is surprising.

George's brother my g. grandfather William Langley was born 1873 to Annis, and on his marriage certificate to Ellen Holdstock his father is a William LANGLEY when in fact it was a William TAYLOR (maybe embarrassed about his illegitimacy) .. the 1901 census proves this since Taylor born 1840 is listed as his father and is living with them.
Same with these brothers' sister Elizabeth Langley who married Fred Barfoot in 1898 in Barnsley, a William Langley is down as her father when there was no such person and we cannot determine the father for her.

I thought the Langley info on the 1901 census and with a Harper family living just two doors away was a clue but I could find none.

Kloumann, thanks for your help, and it could have been possible that the Harper family you located in Worsbrough was family since there's a strong link to that village. 

By the way, I have tried adding links to avoid others having to look up info I provided (as some here kindly provided) but I apparently don't know how, and rootschat had me remove some as it said they were to large like a certificate from ancestry.
               Thank you all very much.
                      Kevin.
 

[kevshae]

Hello again.
Just a note.. does anyone think that this death of a George Harper in Worsbrough (taken from ancestry but no actual certificate shown) could be a link. Not sure however what is meant in the link where it says ('50 years, born February 1819') is referring to. Thank you for a little advice.


Name   George Harper
Death Age   40
[50 years, born February 1819]
Event Type   Death
Birth Year   abt 1830
Death Date   4 Nov 1870
Death Place   Barnsley, Yorkshire, England
Occupation   Collier
Colliery   Worsbrough Park
Owner   Coopers and Co
Notes   Fall of coal.