Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy

[bradwaterss]

Sorry to intervene,

So in your opinion Martha Hall is Mabel Ethel on JTB Jnr's birth certificate?

Brad

[sparrett]

No.
That is not what I have said.

You need to go back to the early postings of this thread.

My speculation is made clear in reply #32.

I cannot comment on  Mary Elizabeth HARMER

Sue

[haliared]

Brad, I would contact the GRO and ask them to send you the end part of the writing on the death certificate, that may solve the whole thing as to who the widow M E Brooks is.

[bradwaterss]

I have purchased both in certificates to be certain however i have emailed GRO to try and provide the final box that is missing

Brad

[ShaunJ]

Presumably (perhaps stating the obvious) the end note on the death certificate says something like "For Brooks read Harmer, widow of AA Harmer deceased"

[Neale1961]

.....
He was in the Royal Navy until 1902 according to documents found by Cas and it appears he then moved into furniture sales of some description. ......

This is not entirely true and his service record with the Royal Navy needs clarification.
Joseph Brooks service record – 12 years (edit)

•   10.12.1894 to 28.1.1902 served on numerous ships (in 1902 bought his way out, 5 years before he would have finished his service)
•   He joined the Royal Fleet Reserve, class B, in Chatham in Jan 1904, and re-enrolled from Jan 1909 for 5 years. During his time with RFR he would have been in his civilian occupation - furniture. (see link below for RFR)
•   WW1 started, and he was then on active service with the Royal Navy from 2 Aug 1914 – 18 Sept 1916 onboard “Pembroke”,  and 19 Sept 1916 – 27 Jan 1919 onboard “Actaeon”.
He was demobilised at the end of the war, with a military pension.

RFR-   https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/genealogy/RFR/RFR.html

Note – If Joseph Thomas Brooks born 20 Feb 1915 in Chatham was his son, the child was born while the father was away on service. It is most probable that he never saw his son, and he may not have known that the child existed.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/598822:60522

[Neale1961]

I have been looking at another potential mother for Joseph Thomas Brooks born 20 Feb 1915, at 4 Boundary Rd Chatham.

Ethel SALES (Ethel perhaps a second name?) born 1894 in Chatham
Came from a fractured family, who obviously struggled financially.
Someone with access to 1921 census may like to see where she is then.


1911 census at 294 Chatham Hill.
– Ethel Sales age 16 is with her mother Maria (40), and her step-father William John Smith (38) a worker at Chatham docks, and some half siblings.
 Ethel is recorded as a day girl domestic servant.
Was she employed at some point by the Allen family at nearby 4 Boundary Rd?
Stewart and Minnie Allen came from Scotland. He was an accountant, so wealthy enough to employ a domestic servant, and we know the Allans had advertised for a home help / housekeeper in early 1914.

1901 census – Chatham Hill.
 Ethel Sales is recorded as Ethel Smith
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9F3-N9Y
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/5449773:7814


Ethel’s mother -
Eliza Maria BLAKE (went by second name Maria) born 1862 Camden / Holborn.
Eliza Maria BLAKE married Thomas Crouch SALES in Malling, Kent in 1888.
Maria SALES then married William John SMITH in Luton Kent in Aug 1899.

(There are a number of workhouse records for Maria Sales and children from 1892 – 1897 time period)


Thomas Crouch SALES born Dec 1868 Burham Kent
He was a stoker with the Royal Navy, and joined for 12 years in November 1887, at the age of 12.
He appears to have been discharged early in July 1892 in Vancouver.
He certainly seems to have abandoned his family in England, and by 1894 had started another family in New York with another ‘wife”

Maria’s children:-
Mary Ann Elizabeth SALES born 1887 Chatham
Elizabeth Rose SALES 1889 Chatham
Edith May SALES (born in Chatham workhouse Jan 1892)
Ethel SALES /or different surname?  born 1894 Chatham [no birth registration found to see what full Christian names were. Baby Ethel and mother in workhouse in Sept 1894. Ethel age 3 in the workhouse in 1897.]
Ernest Robert FISHER  born 1898 Chatham (Father Philip Fisher died 1898)
Annie Elizabeth SMITH 1901 Chatham
Olive Catherine SMITH 1903 Chatham
Edith Alice SMITH 1906 Chatham

[sparrett]

Hi Neale1961
A lot of interesting work and information there.

This is not entirely true and his service record with the Royal Navy needs clarification.
Joseph Brooks service record – started at age 12

•

Are there records for him before 1894.
My understanding is he was born in 1875, so would be aged 19 when commencing unless i have missed a bit..

There is a record for a boy in 1891 census with almost correct birth date and correct birth place.
An inmate of Bernados. But it's not an uncommon name I suppose.

Name   Joseph Brooks
 
Age 15
Inmate
Birth Year1876
Birth Place Bermondsey, London, England
Civil parish Ratcliff
Residence Place Ratcliff, London, England
Registration district Stepney
ED, Institution or Vessel   Dr Barnardos Homes

Sue

[Neale1961]

Hi Sue
i thought he might have been the Barnardos Home boy.
His date of birth was 27 April 1875, Bermondsey.
He wasn’t 12 years of age, he signed up for 12 years of service. Sorry to confuse.