Griffith Family of Lloftwen, Pengelli, now Coedpoeth - 1851 census?

[CheshireSteve]

These mentions of Holt extend into the Griffiths transactions I have been looking at. In the 1803 Sarah Griffith land transactions it mentions "a messuage or tenement in the township of Cacca dutton in the parish of Holt, alias Lions, co. Denbigh".

How Sarah came to be involved in property in Holt was unclear, but I just found a possible connection with what looks to me like a transfer of property (a Consideration: in order to suffer a recovery) from "Richard Thomas of Borras, co. Denbigh, gent. and Anne Griffith of Vron Deg, co. Denbigh, widow" in 1724 to "John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent." (ref DD/CP/659)

Perhaps this transaction helps cement the links between Anne Griffith and her son John, and the John Griffith who died in 1722 husband to Ermin Jones who was in turn sister to John Jones. Though it is a little tenuous to connect this to Sarah owning property in Holt in 1803, but I have so far not found another transaction that could link her to property there.

Incidentally, not sure if it came up earlier but the 18th century residence 'Vrondeg' (as opposed to the general area of the same name) was earlier called Cae David Goch (BMSS/17512-17513 of 1763), and appears in earlier legal records involving Griffiths/Gruffiths.

Another outstanding item of property mentioned in Sarah's transaction in 1803 is "two messuages or tenements called Vron and Ty yn y pant in Garthgynan and Derwen Llanerch in the parish of Llanfair dyffryn clwyd, co. Denbigh; and a messuage or dwelling house in Lampint Street in Wrexham." - all as of yet unexplained. I had hoped these might provide clues to other members of the family, but so far have failed to find anything.

Steve

[CheshireSteve]

Have found some more on the Griffith property in Cacca Dutton referred to in 1803. In an 1826 newspaper (Chester Courant 18th April, p1) there was an auction of properties which can only be those of Elizabeth Griffith. 6 lots including Lloftwen, Talwrn next to Lloftwen, 4 cottages in Adwy'r Clawdd, Fron in Esclusham-above, Bryn-Dinas, and a property in Cacca Dutton, the latter described as "A messuage, garden and croft situated in the township of Cacca Dutton, in the parish of Holt, containing about 2 acres of exceeding rich land, lying not far from the River Dee, and now in the holding of William Barrow." There's several details of the other properties, especially noting the potential for mineral riches to be found beneath the ground.

Steve

[wilcoxon]

Going back to the Griffith of Bryn Y Grog.  I have to post in 2 parts .

BRYN Y GROG. Griffith to Jones .
This lot are quite complicated , why did they change their name. One thing is sure all the records of John Jones selling Bryn Y Grog   are not quite right, it was really John Griffith.

 There are quite a few Ermin Jones around but this is the best one with an age that fits
 Ruabon 26 April  1674 baptism of Ermin  Jones d/o Edward Jones.
Ruabon 4 Feb 1709 burial of Ermin Jones Christionydd Kenrick. Mother of above ?
No marriage has been found between Edward Jones and an Ermine.

Marchwiel Registers . All children have surname Griffith,
1702 4 Feb Marchwiel.   John Griffith yeo married Ermin Jones .
1703 30 Dec. William s/o John and Ermine Griffith baptised.
1705 12 Oct. Mary d/o ditto
1708 8 May. Frances d/o ditto
1710 17 June. Ermine d/o ditto
1712 18 Oct. John s/o ditto
1714 18 Feb. Thomas s/o ditto.
1721 2 March. A John Griffith buried.
There are no further details on any of the above records.
 
In the will of John Griffith, Gent, he leaves properties in Wrexham, Bangor and Marchwiel. I give to Ermin my wife one ? called Bryn y Grog to have and hold during her natural life.
 And after her death I give ? to my son William JONES ( and the heirs of his body lawfully ensuing and for the want of such )  I give to  my son John  (ditto).  I give to my son Thomas (ditto)  I give to my  daughter Mary (ditto)  I give to my daughter Ffrances (ditto)  I give to my daughter Ermin (ditto).
 He gives the rest of his real estate to son William JONES and the heirs of his body lawfully ensuing and for the want of such.  Same details again  for John , Thomas, Mary, Ffrances, Ermin. All 6 children are named
They all are also left money between £100 and £200 . It then gets a bit complicated as regards William using more money for the benefit of the younger children.  To my brother JOHN JONES  and his heirs until he shall out of the rents etc the sum of £150 ... . My will and meaning that the legacies shall not be paid to the younger children  until they reach 21. All the rest of his estate he leaves to Ermin his wife.
Ermin is named as Executrix. His brother JOHN JONES is appointed as trustee.
Both John Griffith and Ermin Griffith signed the document.
It`s possible that the brother JOHN JONES is his brother in law and Ermin`s brother .
Another option is that John Griffith`s mother also married a JONES at some time , in which case he would be a step brother. It is confusing. His son JOHN would be 12.
No surnames given except for William who is now Jones , he was baptised as Griffith.

An inventory of the goods was taken on 3 April 1722.
One of the witnesses was Humphrey Foulkes rector of Marchwiel. The will was proved 24 April 1722.

1753 23 Feb. Ermine Griffiths buried Marchwiel . Her named children are now JONES.
Ermin Griffith of Bryn y Grog signed her will 11 February 1748. It was proved 4 February 1754.
She names sons John Jones, Thomas Jones and daughter Ermin Jones. Granddaughter Ermin Morris
So eldest son William b 1703. Ffrances b 1708  and Mary b 1705 are not named.  Have they married,  and under which surname.

It's known from documents that William Jones had definitely died by 1760 as his brother John Jones was described as his heir.
A William Jones was buried  at Marchwiel on 11 May 1737 and another 1 Aug 1729 but there`s no way of knowing it`s the right one as ages and abode isn't given,  also no will has been found.
 
 Only Mary  and John have been found.

[wilcoxon]

 Only Mary  and John have been found.

28 May 1731  A Mary Jones of Malpas married John Morris of Bettisfield at Hanmer. Banns.
Ermine Morris baptised 16 February 1734 at Overton. Daughter of John Morris shoemaker of Overton Villa  and Mary .
29 Sept 1756 An Ermine Morris spinster married Joseph White a peruke maker at Overton.
19 August 1761 Ermine White burial Overton.
26 December 1763 at Overton Joseph  White peruke maker married Mary Cash. Oddly the first name on the Banns  of the spouse is Mary White. Mary Cash  made her mark. The parish register has the correct name of Mary Cash.

JOHN GRIFFITH / JONES baptised 1712.
 Wrexham January 1744 a John Jones married Elizabeth Edwards both OTP Banns.

Wrexham  Ermin Jones b 23 July 1744, baptised 31 July.  Father John Jones lab of Pentre Velin Newydd.  Probably Pentre'r Felin Newydd which was a small settlement around the Red Lion, Kings Mills area and just a short distance from the current Bryn y Grog.
Marchwiel , 11 June   1745  Ermin Jones daughter of John Jones of Pentre y Felin buried.
Marchwiel. 4 August 1750 Ermin daughter of John and Elizabeth Jones baptised.
Marchwiel Ermine Jones an infant was buried 23 October 1750
Marchwiel An Elizabeth Jones was buried 29 October 1750.
Is this mother and daughter.
Did John Jones marry and have more children.

Marchwiel.  October 1791 Ermine Jones of  Wrexham buried. Who does she belong to. She could be Ermine Griffith born 1710, but would be 81.

Why have the names changed.

There is a document dated 1763 for a mortgage for property including Bryn y Grog, kiln and lands in Bedwell. John Jones of Wrexham, grocer and ironmonger / Anne Shakerley of Egham Suffolk.
The Shakerley family also had lands in Gwersyllt and were acquainted with the Robinsons.

British Listed Buildings.
Constructed late C18 on the site of a building which had been on the site since at least 1700 when it was owned by Mrs Elis of Wrexham, Bryn-y-Grog Hall was bought by Philip Yorke of Erddig in 1773 from John Jones. Other sources say he is a grocer.
This was 10 years after the mortgage, why was John selling.
No positive death has been found for John Jones , and no will.


Flintshire / Denbighshire Archives

03 Nov 1676 Marriage settlement
(i) Katherine Tyler of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, widow.
(ii) John Edisbury of Erthig [Erddig], co. Denbigh, esq., Joshua Edisbury, his eldest son and heir apparent, Edward Mainwaring of Wrexham, draper and John Ely of Rowton, co. Chester, gent.
(iii) George Ely of Wrexham, draper.
Conveyance to (ii) of capital messuage called Bryn y grog with lands (named) in Marchwiel, co. Denbigh, upon trusts (specified).
Consideration: intended marriage of (iii) and Mary, daughter of (i).

10 Mar 1706/07 Demise.
(i) Mary Ely of Marchwiel, co. Denbigh, widow.
(ii) Robert Hughes of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent.
Capital messuage called Bryn y Grog with lands (named) in Marchwiel.
Term: 99 years or life of (i).

18/19 Aug 1758
i) John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, grocer and ironmonger.
(ii) Thomas Parry of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent.
(iii) Thomas Blackbarne of Wrexham, gent.
Messuage called Bryn-y-grog, kiln and lands (named) in Bedwall and Marchwiel, co. Denbigh.
Consideration: breaking the entail. Is he trying to remove the conditions of his fathers will in order to be able to sell .

14 Jan 1765
(i) Anne Shackerley of Egham, co. Surrey, spinster.
(ii) John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, grocer and ironmonger.
(iii) Thomas Patton of Chester, currier.
Mortgage in 800 affecting property as in D/E/29 [messuage called Bryn-y-grog, kiln and lands in Bedwall and Marchwiel, co. Denbigh].

29 Jul 1772
 (i) John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, grocer.
(ii) John Edgeworth of Brynygrog, Marchwiel, co. Denbigh, esq.
For sale to (ii) of Messuage on the W. side of the church-yard and a pew in the N. part of the chancel of Marchwiel church for £51.

3 Jul 1772
Deed for barring the entail
(i) Roger Edgworth of Bryn-y-grog in Marchwiel parish, co. Denbigh, gent.
(ii) John James of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent.
Messuage or mansion house called Brynygrog and parcels of land called Cae?r groes, Cae?n Scybor, Cae?r gegin, otherwise Cae?r popty and Yr Erw in Marchwiel parish.

29/30 Jun 1774
(i) John Jones, late of Brynygrog, Marchwiel, now of Wrexham, co.Denbigh, grocer and ironmonger, brother and heir of William Jones of Marchwiel, gent., deceased.
(ii) William Lloyd of Plas Power, co.Denbigh, esq.
Property as in DD/PP/76.
Consideration: £150.
(also agreement between John Jones and William Lloyd, 11 1774).

[CheshireSteve]

Wow - that is some major research, thanks !

Ann Griffith certainly appears in transactions up to 1724 - see my earlier post. So if she remarried it was after the death of John Griffith. It seems very strange that the will of Ermin Griffiths should name her children as Jones. Maybe it was considered vital to the Jones family business to use the Jones surname and Ermin's sons were the male heirs. I suspect John Jones named in John Griffith's will was Ermin's brother. Maybe he had no male children.

I discovered a surname change in my family tree in 1829. My direct ancestor was a witness for the prosecution in a major trial, and many people were going to be imprisoned or deported. However the trial failed on a technicality, leaving my ancestor in a perilous position - he therefore hastily moved away and changed his name, otherwise I wouldn't be here. There was no formal process back then, I was fortunate a previous researcher documenting the trial had turned it up.

Steve

[wilcoxon]

https://discover.library.wales/permalink/44WHELF_NLW/cn21ca/alma99157340202419

Have you got this. Edward was a widower.

Griffiths, Edward, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire to Smith, Sarah, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1778 Jan. 26
Marriage bonds, ca. 1690-1837 99230987302419

Marriage at Wrexham
marriage bond.
Creation Date 1778

I got the marriage bond hoping it would help, it didn't 

26 January 1778.
Edward Griffith of Wrexham Parish intends to marry Sarah Smith.  Both over 21.
A sum of £200 is paid to Edward Edwards surrogate for a licence.
Edward Griffith and Samuel Hughes of Wrexham paid the amount.
No other people are named. Edward Griffith signed , his signature is very spidery but better than the one on his will.

It's a shame the marriage isn't in the Parish Registers,  there could have been clues with wittnesses.
There's no occupation given for Samuel Hughes. 

If you want a copy just let me know.

I have seen Marriage Bonds with much more information,  but never mind. It was worth a shot.

[CheshireSteve]

Shame, appreciate you gave it a go, though not clear to me the role of Samuel Hughes.

Came across a mention of the late Edward Griffith in a will of 1826 for Edward Roberts of Esclusham above (SA/1826/221) in which he bequeaths  "lands and tenements held under lease of the late Mr Edwd Griffith of penygelli now the property of John Burton of Minera Esq". I was surprised to see him mentioned 46 years after his death, but I assume these are long term leases which Robert or John Burton had to honour when they purchased the properties. The only Burton purchase I am aware of before Edward Griffith died in 1780 is the transaction involving Robert Burton and Ty yn yr ynn, Cae Glas, and Cae yr Skybor (presumably Cae ysgubor) c1774. Though I suppose it is possible someone else bought it before 1780 and then Robert or John Burton bought it from them before 1826.

I suspect Robert Burton purchased properties in Esclusham Above hoping to benefit from the mineral wealth beneath - both coal or lead. The tithe map shows John Burton (his nephew and heir) owning quite a large acreage. A 1740 Badeslade map just touches on the North of Esclusham Above and shows Edwd Griffith against what was later Penymynydd Farm - the property is not named on the map, and the building layout is different. As I can find no reference to Penymynydd Farm before c1838, I am wondering if this was originally Ty yn yr ynn (the house in the ash trees). The tithe map shows John Burton as owner, and Samuel Roberts as tenant, he is son of Edward Roberts (see 1826 will above), but it is clear Edward Roberts had several properties in the area.

Pursuing the Edward Roberts connections I found a will for Elizabeth Roberts (widow) of Esclusham in 1782 (SA/1782/211), 4 sons: Will, John, Owen and Edward Roberts, and she had a daughter Mary Griffiths, who was sole executor. Elizabeth's estate was in the hands of Edward Roberts. So could easily be the one who died in 1826. I can't find the marriage for Mary to see if it links to the Giffiths family we have been researching.

Steve

[wilcoxon]

Wills

 Edward Roberts 1826
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/819273

Elizabeth Roberts 1782
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/62617

[wilcoxon]

 
Wrexham
2 burial entries for Edward Roberts on 19 November 1825   on different registers
Both have age 80 b c 1745
Abode Vronday / Vrondeg
The other one has Esclusham Above

Elizabeth Roberts buried 23 December 1782 of EA.. Esclusham Above probably