Author Topic: TOPIC COMPLETE - Thomas Ives FOUND!  (Read 2890 times)

Offline g a r

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TOPIC COMPLETE - Thomas Ives FOUND!
« on: Wednesday 14 September 05 20:44 BST (UK) »
If you like a challenge, well, read on...

Thomas Ives was born 1869. He shows up on the 1871 census with his family in Islington All Saints
RG10/260/67/47.

Father Allen Ives(born Waltham Abbey, Essex) dies 02/07/1879 leaving
wife Mary(nee Walker born Easton, Huntingdonshire) with five hungry mouths to feed and another coming any time.

In 1881 mother Mary and four children turn up in 21 Arpley rd., Surrey. RG11/823/97/14
Also, second oldest daughter Maria shows up in Wellesley House, Twickenham at the "Met Police Orphanage"
RG11/1343/128/1

Where's Thomas?

In 1891 Mary Ives and the "core four" show up in St Paul's Deptford at 17 Alpine rd. RG12/503/43/27
Maria is elsewhere.

At this point Thomas is approximately 22 and probably gainfully employed. But so far I haven't been able to find him. :-(

In 1898 he surfaces in Scotland just in time to get married to Robina Stockan, (naming both Allen Ives and Mary Walker correctly, as parents)

And then he shows up for the 1901 census in Newport Pagnell, living at 23A Union St. RG13/1362/__/24

I would like to be able to fill in the gaps so...

any help would be much appreciated,

skooner,
in chilly Manitoba

Offline JAP

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 15 September 05 03:43 BST (UK) »
skooner,

Where was Thomas born?

Have you searched for Thomas in Scotland in 1881 and 1891?

JAP

Offline g a r

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 15 September 05 06:11 BST (UK) »
Hi JAP,

Thanks for raising those questions. I had a feeling I might have missed covering some bases.

I don't have his birth registration. I haven't been able to find it in freebmd either, although from what I can tell 1869 is one of those years where transcribing is incomplete.

I have searched 1881 and 1891 census on the scotland's people site with no joy.

On the 1871 census the information given is as follows:
Allen Ives head  married 31 prison officer born Essex Easton Armley
Mary ditto wife ditto 29 - ditto
Thomas ditto son - 2 - ditto

Allen was born Waltham Abbey Essex 1840 so Essex fits him
Mary was born Easton, Huntingdon 1842/3 so Easton fits her
but as far as I know the only Armley in England is in Yorkshire, so I guess that means that Thomas was born in Yorkshire.

The 1901 census confirms that as he gives this information:
Thomas Ives head M 32 excise officer inland revenue Yorkshire, Armley as birthplace.

Unfortunately I have no information regarding Thomas' fathers siblings (ie Allen Ives brothers and sisters). So I have no idea why the Ives family would be in Yorkshire in 1869 especially as before and after they stayed south of Spaldwick, Huntingdonshire.

Every piece of information regarding this family is always hard won and only one bit at a time - never a windfall. Oft times I feel like chucking the whole lot in the bin. And if they weren't basically in the mainline I would!

skooner

Offline JAP

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 15 September 05 06:34 BST (UK) »
Hi again skooner,

Sorry to be a pain - but it might help someone else to help you.

You don't mention where they were in 1871?

I see from FreeBMD a marriage for an Allen IVES in Huntingdon (Huntingdonshire/Cambridgeshire) in 1868.  And the death of an Allen IVES in 1879 in St Olave, Southwark.  Are these records yours?

I take it that you are quite sure that the Thomas IVES in 1901 b Yorkshire, Armley is yours (and, if he is, could Yorkshire be an addition i.e. an error?).  And that the Waltham Abbey Allen is yours.

I ask that only because the birthplaces in 1871 seem to be a right mess with all three born in "Essex, Easton, Armley".

JAP


Offline Valda

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 15 September 05 07:31 BST (UK) »
1861 census RG9 4440 folio 249
Liffey Royal Navy  Grand Harbour Malta
Allen Ives 22  Lewiston, Essex, England A B 

For Armley I imagine you need to look for Leeds as well
A possible in 1891 would therefore be
RG12 660 folio 51
Gillingham  Kent 
Ives, Thos 23 Leeds, Yorkshire, Boarder  Dockyard writer (not precisely sure what occupation this was but it might be a useful stepping stone to excise officer of 1901)

Regards
Valda

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 15 September 05 08:16 BST (UK) »
Hi skooner,

Probably worth searching 1837 online for Thomas's birth in (say) 1869 +/- 2 ...

JAP

Offline g a r

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #6 on: Friday 16 September 05 03:03 BST (UK) »
You're right JAP, I should have been a bit more specific with the 1871 entry. They were living at 10 St James st. Islington All Saints (Finsbury) and generally speaking Middlesex.

I believe this is the right crew as mother and father have the correct birth places; if you separate the one line into three (Essex Easton Armley becomes Essex, Easton, Armley).

Also father Allen, listed as prison officer, does go on to join the Metorpolitan Police Force. This did not seem to me to be too far fetched as a job change.

As to the entries from freebmd: These are the correct ones for father Allen born Waltham Abbey (1840) and died St Olave (1879). The 1868 marriage is also the correct one.

Also quite sure about 1901 entry for Thomas Ives. His spouse is Robina and I am lucky enough to actually have a signed Christmas card with both their names on it. So if in fact Thomas is sure about his information regarding his birth then I have to believe that he was born in Armley, Yorkshire.

(The intrigue now becomes - what on earth lead Allen and Mary to be in Armley 6-8 months after their wedding?)

The birthplace entries from 1871 were quite a disappiontment.

Valda:

Thanks for this, it looks promising.

skooner
p.s. CSI on gotta go

Offline JAP

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #7 on: Friday 16 September 05 06:21 BST (UK) »
Hi skooner,

If Allen was a prison officer, perhaps he did a stint working at Armley Gaol:
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/armley.html

I can't seem to find any references to archives of records of prison officers but perhaps it would be worth contacting this site to check whether they know of any:
Click Here

JAP

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Need help to find the elusive Thomas Ives
« Reply #8 on: Friday 16 September 05 22:32 BST (UK) »
I have a horrible feeling that you are chasing information badly recorded in the census.

If you assume that Waltham Abbey is a correct birth place for Allen then it is not too difficult to see Abbey misread or misheard as Armley.  With the wife declaring herself from Easton the second mistake could have been made.  Have you looked at the original handwritten return or are you relying on transcriptions?  Could Allen read and write?  Do you have any evidence whether he could sign his name?

A country accent from Waltham Abbey could easily be misinterpreted in Islington, and a huntingdon accent of the time even more likely.

Just another thought.

David 
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
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