Author Topic: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!  (Read 5728 times)

Offline PrueM

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Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« on: Friday 21 October 05 12:30 BST (UK) »
Can any keen-eyed rootschatters read what's written on the back of this photograph?
In particular, I want to know what the second place name is, after "West Wicklow".
I see the following:

WEST WICKLOW
CAISARWIRTH

SIDNEY GEORGE
FRANCIS? INGRAM?

Any help GREATLY appreciated.  I think this is the key to determining the identity of the person in the photograph (I haven't posted him here but you can see him on this thread if you're interested - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,74264.0.html)

THank you!!

Prue

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Offline PrueM

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 22 October 05 01:16 BST (UK) »
Hi folks,
I also posted this on the Common Room board, where someone thought the mystery word might be "Caesarwitch".  I Googled that, and with some spelling variations came up with the Cesarewitch horse race, which is held at the Curragh racecourse and has done since at least the mid 1800s.  However, it doesn't seem to be an actual place name. 

Does anyone know anything about the Cesarewitch, or its history?

Prue

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Offline Cal241

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 22 October 05 21:23 BST (UK) »
Hi Cuz

I have searched and searched and searched again until I am batty (which doesn't take long) cannot find any clues about this :'( :'( :'(


Please please please out there we need HELP!!!! :) :) :)

Cal
UK Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk                Bigg-Sheppey/West Ham<br />Dodd - Cheshire <br />Ingram - Dorset, London, Morlaix, Australia, California<br />Kerfoot - Warrington, Pemberton, St Asaph<br />McKinneley - N Ireland, Liverpool <br />Marshall - Midlothian, Cheshire<br />Morrish-Chelsea<br />Shiel - Melrose<br />Woodhall- Liverpool, Shropshire/Staffordshire<br />Dagliesh- Melrose<br />Stevenson - Melrose<br />Smith & Jones! Scotland & Wales

Offline Headbanger Veron

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 22 October 05 21:46 BST (UK) »

Does anyone know anything about the Cesarewitch, or its history?

Prue

The Irish Cesarewitch is run at the Curragh but I Googled as well and came up with the following: the English Cesarewitch is a flat race, one of the English classics, which has been run every year since 1839 at Newmarket. The interesting bit is.. it was won in 1929 by an Irish gelding called West Wicklow.
 
http://www.tbheritage.com/TurfHallmarks/racecharts/Cesarewitch.html

I don't know how relevant that is but if it isn't, it's quite a coincidence.

Cheers Veron
All census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Currently researching:
ABRAHAMS (Essex/Woolwich), CARPENTER (Kent)
CLEMENTS (London), CRADDOCK (Sheerness)
HORTON (Birmingham)
MUNCASTER (Whitehaven then Manchester, Scotland, Suffolk and Canada!)
TANCOCK (Devon/Cornwall),
WILSON (Edinburgh)
among others.....

Offline Little Nell

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 22 October 05 21:53 BST (UK) »
And the race, founded in 1839, is named after the tsesarevich Alexander who visited England.  He became Tsar Alexander II of Russia.

This rendition of the Russian word is interesting.  I would have written it Tsarevich being relatively close the Russian original.  But Wikipedia says this is technically incorrect. The sound Ts is represented by one letter in Russian.  Ah well......  :-\

Nell
All census information: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline PrueM

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 22 October 05 22:46 BST (UK) »
Ooooh!!  Veron - I think you're right on the money there!  That has to be it. 

Which means..............

My fellow doesn't come from west wicklow at all, and someone just used  his picture to scribble down a race result! ;D ;D ;D

Well, at least I know the photo is from before 1929!  ;D

If anyone else has some ideas I'd be glad to add them to the pile.   And thanks, Nell, for the info about the race name, that's interesting.  I suppose "Caesar" and "Kaiser" and "Tsar" all have the same root in the Latin Caesar, but I still don't know how they got "Cesarewitch" out of "Tsarevitch".  Oh well!

A very happy, but now more confused, Prue  ;D

Offline Cal241

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 22 October 05 23:26 BST (UK) »
I  can't believe that they used this photo to note the racing resuts!!!!!!!!!! Surely not!

But there again everything we have seen so far has led us to believe our ancestors were barking!!
There has to be a lead in there somewhere ???

Plese have look on the link for us to take a guess at who this chap was???

Cx
UK Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk                Bigg-Sheppey/West Ham<br />Dodd - Cheshire <br />Ingram - Dorset, London, Morlaix, Australia, California<br />Kerfoot - Warrington, Pemberton, St Asaph<br />McKinneley - N Ireland, Liverpool <br />Marshall - Midlothian, Cheshire<br />Morrish-Chelsea<br />Shiel - Melrose<br />Woodhall- Liverpool, Shropshire/Staffordshire<br />Dagliesh- Melrose<br />Stevenson - Melrose<br />Smith & Jones! Scotland & Wales

Offline Headbanger Veron

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 23 October 05 15:52 BST (UK) »


My fellow doesn't come from west wicklow at all, and someone just used  his picture to scribble down a race result! ;D ;D ;D


Well yes...... possibly..... but it looks as if all the handwriting on the back of the photo is all the same person.. and that it was all written at the same time..... I'm wondering if Sidney George Francis or Ingram was maybe the name of the jockey? I couldn't find anything about that when I was hunting around yesterday - but looking at your other post with the front of the photo, it's much earlier than 1929, isn't it.

So the question in my mind is - did your family have anything to do with racing, rather than someone just having used it as a notepad - i.e. could the writing be relevant to the picture, but not so that it identifies the person, just that it's connected? I was wondering whether your old gentleman might have been a racehorse owner or something, and the writing was jotted down by someone else trying to find out about him....

This is probably a complete flight of fancy but it's certainly got me intrigued.  ??? ???

Cheers Veron
All census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Currently researching:
ABRAHAMS (Essex/Woolwich), CARPENTER (Kent)
CLEMENTS (London), CRADDOCK (Sheerness)
HORTON (Birmingham)
MUNCASTER (Whitehaven then Manchester, Scotland, Suffolk and Canada!)
TANCOCK (Devon/Cornwall),
WILSON (Edinburgh)
among others.....

Offline PrueM

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Re: Help needed with deciphering place name!!!
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 23 October 05 21:55 BST (UK) »
Hi Veron,
Yes, I was thinking about this myself (obviously! ;D ) and whereas initially we had thought that this bloke was one of our school-teaching INGRAM clan, maybe he's not at all, or maybe he is, but he's the black sheep who went into racehorse ownership! 

The conclusion about the date of the photograph was that it dated from around the 1870s or later (based on his clothing) and also that it was a photograph of an engraving, and that the engraving was from some kind of pamphlet or booklet.  HmmM!

The man does bear a striking resemblance to my INGRAM ancestors though, and it's possible that he's a brother of my 3xg-grandfather.

Hmmmm....again!

Prue