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Topic: Advice sought on Muller orphanages (Read 2031 times)
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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I spent a considerable amount of time tracking down my great grandmother on the 1861 census (at which point she had lost both parents), and eventually came up with "M S F, age 9, born abt 1852, in Paignton Devon, residing in the New Orphan House Number 2 in Clifton, Bristol St James and St Paul, Gloucestershire. Her name was Martha Susanna Froude born 4/2/1852 from this area of Devon and it seems that the orphans are all listed under their initials.
I thought this was a fairly reasonable identification, especially given some additional indications such as the fact that her place of birth on the 1871 census is given as Bristol, an anomaly which would be explained by her being in the orphanage in Bristol from the age of 9 or earlier. However when I contacted the George Muller foundation which ran these orphanages, they told me that she definitely was not there as she was not in their records.
Obviously, this is disappointing and, while I do not doubt their good faith and am grateful for their looking this up, I do not see how they could be so certain. I wonder if she might have been there and her name wrongly transcribed in their records. I'm just wondering if anyone has any previous experience checking records with the Muller foundation, an opinion on this matter, or any suggestions as to how to confirm this information in another way.
From what I have read of these orphanages, the girls were always kept there until they were seventeen years old, at which point they were found some form of employment, often going into service (unless they were expelled previously for some reason). Would there be some way of tracing her when she came out of the institution (normally this would have been in 1869 in her case).
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Thanks for your reply.
Yes, I already have her on the 1871 census and later. It is with regard to her being in the orphanage in this earlier period that I would like to find some confirmation.
Alan
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Arranroots
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10922
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Not much help re the orphanage but do you have her parents' names and have you found their deaths?
Just wondering which area they were in for the 1851 census and later?
Kind regards, Arranroots 
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SOM: BIRD, BURT aka BROWN HEF: BAUGH, LATHAM, CARTER, PRITCHARD GLS: WEBB, WORKMAN, LATHAM, MALPUS WIL: WEBB, SALTER RAD: PRITCHARD, WILLIAMS GLA: RYAN, KEARNEY, JONES, HARRY MON: WEBB, MORGAN, WILLIAMS, JONES, BIRD SCOTLAND: HASTINGS, CAMERON, KELSO, BUCHANAN, BETHUNE/ BEATON IRELAND: RYAN (WATERFORD), KEARNEY (DUBLIN), BOYLE(DUNDALK) |
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Many thanks for your reply.
I do have the information on her parents, who lived in Stoke Gabriel, Devon. Martha Susanna was the last of their 9 children and her parents died when she was quite young. I also know that Martha was in the Devon House of Mercy in 1871. Since I could not find her with any of her immediate family members in 1861, I started thinking of orphanages and, given the 1871 census of her birthplace being Bristol (whereas she was born in Stoke Gabriel), I thought she might have been in an orphanage in Bristol. Therefore, to me, it seems very reasonable that she was in the Ashley Down orphanage in 1861.
Alan
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Arranroots
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10922
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So we're looking for a Martha Susannah (possibly FROUD/E possibly something else if fostered) aged about 9 in 1861.
Did she stay in the Devon area later? (I don;t have access to the 1871 at the moment to check)
Kind regards, Arranroots
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SOM: BIRD, BURT aka BROWN HEF: BAUGH, LATHAM, CARTER, PRITCHARD GLS: WEBB, WORKMAN, LATHAM, MALPUS WIL: WEBB, SALTER RAD: PRITCHARD, WILLIAMS GLA: RYAN, KEARNEY, JONES, HARRY MON: WEBB, MORGAN, WILLIAMS, JONES, BIRD SCOTLAND: HASTINGS, CAMERON, KELSO, BUCHANAN, BETHUNE/ BEATON IRELAND: RYAN (WATERFORD), KEARNEY (DUBLIN), BOYLE(DUNDALK) |
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Dear Arranroots,
Thanks for your interest. Please do not search the censuses for her : I have already done this. I already have her on all of the censuses, as well as her birth, marriage, etc. (She was born on 4/2/1852 in Stoke Gabriel, Devon.) The only thing missing was the 1861 census, until I tracked her down to the Ashley Down orphanages in Bristol. I was fairly certain of this identification. However, when I contacted them, they said she is definitely not in their records. However, I have come across some incredible mistranscriptions of the surname Froude in the censuses, so wouldn't it be possible for the Muller orphanage records to be also mistranscribed? I'm basically looking for someone who has previous experience in accessing their records, for example.
Thanks,
Alan
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Thanks for your reply, Graceland. Is it actually possible to consult the indexes or lists of children who were in the homes if one visits the Muller museum?
By the way, I wonder if someone can enlighten me regarding a related issue.
In the 1871 census record for Martha, her birthplace is actually given as "Somersetshire Bristol".
I thought Bristol was in Gloucestershire. What could be the reason for it being listed as Somerset rather than Gloucestershire?
Thanks,
Alan
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Arranroots
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10922
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Hello again
(And hi Graceland - long time no speak - hope you're well?)
The parts of Bristol that are south of the river (Bedminster for example) were considered to be in Somerset. You're quite lucky in that this narrows it down considerably!
I wonder if it would be worth bothering the Muller people again? Just in case they overlooked something? If they could provide an alternative identity for the person it might ease your mind.
Kind regards, Arranroots
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SOM: BIRD, BURT aka BROWN HEF: BAUGH, LATHAM, CARTER, PRITCHARD GLS: WEBB, WORKMAN, LATHAM, MALPUS WIL: WEBB, SALTER RAD: PRITCHARD, WILLIAMS GLA: RYAN, KEARNEY, JONES, HARRY MON: WEBB, MORGAN, WILLIAMS, JONES, BIRD SCOTLAND: HASTINGS, CAMERON, KELSO, BUCHANAN, BETHUNE/ BEATON IRELAND: RYAN (WATERFORD), KEARNEY (DUBLIN), BOYLE(DUNDALK) |
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Old Bristolian
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 558
Ada & Joan
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Bristol was in neither Gloucestershire or Somerset (since 1376?) following the granting of County status to the city by Edward 111. It was always known as "The City & County of Bristol" and had its own Sheriff as well as a Mayor.
Historically the heart of the old city was in Glos, and as Arranroots has pointed out, Bedminster & the present south of the city were in Somerset. I've found a lot of confusion in census records though - its often desribed as being in one county or the other without any good reason
Steve
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Bumstead - London, Suffolk
Flexney, Godfrey - Oxfordshire
Street, Cave - Gloucestershire
Gibbs, Gait, Noyes, Peters, Padfield, Board, York, Rogers, Emery, Clavey - Somerset
Fook, Snell - Devon
M(a)cDonald, Yuell, Gollan, McKenzie - Rosshire
McLennan, Mackintosh - Inverness
Williams, Jones - Angelsey & Caernarvon
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Arranroots
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10922
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Hi Steve
Yes, I remember they used to have some really smart road signs proclaiming the City and County of Bristol.
They were removed when Avon came into being in the 1970s ...  
For census purposes though, I think we can say that she came from "south of the river". 
Arranroots
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SOM: BIRD, BURT aka BROWN HEF: BAUGH, LATHAM, CARTER, PRITCHARD GLS: WEBB, WORKMAN, LATHAM, MALPUS WIL: WEBB, SALTER RAD: PRITCHARD, WILLIAMS GLA: RYAN, KEARNEY, JONES, HARRY MON: WEBB, MORGAN, WILLIAMS, JONES, BIRD SCOTLAND: HASTINGS, CAMERON, KELSO, BUCHANAN, BETHUNE/ BEATON IRELAND: RYAN (WATERFORD), KEARNEY (DUBLIN), BOYLE(DUNDALK) |
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Thanks to Arranroots and Steve for your postings.
It is effectively a good idea to perhaps ask the orphanage who the MSF was on the census if it wasn't her. I should have thought of that. However, I'm reluctant to bombard them with too many questions. At the moment, I am sort of in a "state of denial" where I refuse to believe the idea that she was not in fact there. However, your additional indication that she must have been south of the river seems to raise a further question as, as far as I can see (forgive my ignorance), Ashley Down is north of the river. I am now looking for what areas or towns south of the river would have been considered part of Bristol in the late 19th century. Presumably, Bedminster is the main one, as you mention it.
Thanks for all this food for thought.
Alan
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sheena58
RootsChat Member
Posts: 151
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
My grandfather and his siblings were in the Ashley Down Orphan Houses although later than your great grandmother. They have a small museum which I visited a couple of years ago and it is possible if you contact them in advance to see the original record books which were meticulously kept. The amount of detail recorded was fascinating although this was in 1901 so earlier records may not have been so clear. They even state the name, address and trade of the person the children went to work for on leaving the orphan houses and whether that person was 'a good Christian' or 'doubtful'!
I would suggest contacting them again and asking your questions directly to them. I found them very helpful and when I contacted them they sent me the original Victorian birth, marriage and death certificates from my family along with copies of every single record they held from the admission and discharge books to letters from my great, great grandparents. In fact they provided me with a small, very sad 'potted-history'.
Good luck
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MacKay/McKay: Glasgow, Inverness,Tarbat & RedCastle Scotland. Toronto, Canada.
McAulay/MacAulay: Caithness, Sutherland,Glasgow.
Dallas: Inverness.
Fraser: Tarbat.
Whyte: Avoch, Knockbain.
Mynard/Cannom/Harridance: any
Barrenger/Stapleton: Kent
Hoare: Hoo/Maidstone
Baker/Wood: Boughton Malherbe
Saltmarsh: Maldon district.
Smith: Dunmow/Stow Maries.
Anderson/Rash: Cambs
Pegg/Garner:Norfolk/Cambs
Bruce:Caithness
Larance/Comer: Norfolk
Kimmence: Suffolk
Bruster/Coote: Essex
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Hi Sheena,
Thank you very much for your reply and for this invaluable information.
Yes, I did contact them and they said that my great grandmother was definitely not there! This really surprised me as I had spent months tracking her down on the 1861 census and I felt sure she was there : everything seemed to match, even if only the initials of the children were given, MSF in her case. Also, I wondered how could they be so sure, when there are often mistranscriptions of her surname, Froude. I was very disappointed. The information you apparently obtained would have been invaluable in Martha Froude's case, because I really want to find out how she ended up in the Devon House of Mercy 10 years later. So it felt like I really came up against a blockage. I don't want to "pester" them too much, so I suppose I would need to come up with some additional evidence before contacting them again.
Anyway, glad to hear you got such useful information from them.
Best wishes,
Alan
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