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Topic: What do you make of this? Somebody please read and suggest!! (Read 965 times)
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claudia99
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Posts: 499
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Hi Rootschatters!
OK - I will try to keep this simple as it could get complicated but can some of you let me have you views on this puzzle I have - if you can follow my logic on this one!! 
On the Fildes part of my tree, I have got back to a Thomas Paine Fildes, born 1817/1818 in Manchester. I know from his marriage certificate to Sarah Gee in 1840 that his father was called William Fildes, occupation Reedmaker. I cannot as yet find Thomas' birth record and I've taken his birth date from his age at marriage and census returns I can find him on. I also don't know as yet what his mother was called.
My family have often used a mother's maiden name as a middle name but I did a bit of research into the man Thomas Paine as the name Paine had not appeared anywhere else - I only had Hilton, Hooper and Towler as middle names which had continued down the tree.
Tom Paine was a political writer in the late 18th century. One web page (www.sparticus.schoolnet.co.uk) gave information on who he was, what he wrote and it seems he wrote about human rights. On the same webpage was information on the political activist of the same era Mary Fildes (maiden name Mary Pritchard) and how she named two of her sons after political figures of the time - John Cartwright Fildes and Henry Hunt Fildes. The same webpage gave information on both of these men - Henry Hunt was a political speaker of the time. John Cartwright also wrote a political book in 1776 which was looking for parliamentary reform. He toured the country in the early 19th Century and was arrested in 1813 for attempting to unite the middle class moderates with the radical working class for reform.
Mary Fildes was the grandmother of the Victorian artist Sir Samuel Luke Fildes whom she brought up. Mary Fildes died in May 1875 in Manchester according to the same webpage.
Mary Fildes is famous for speaking at the Peterloo massacre in St Peter's Fields, Manchester in 1819 - Henry Hunt , a gentleman farmer,also spoke there on the day.
The book written by Thomas Paine called "The Rights of Man" was distributed at the St Peter's Fields event in 1819 before the actual "massacre" took place. (NB It was as a result of reading Tom Paine's book that Thomas Hardy founded the London Corresponding Society in 1792 which had the aim of achieving a vote for all adult males.) His book recommended votes for all males, old age pensions, maternity grants, family allowance, progressive taxation. He also recommended a House of Commons be set up and that the House of Lords be abolished.
John Cartwright was invited to speak at St Peter's Fields in 1819 but could not attend due to ill health as he was 79 years old at the time. He also spent the last few years of his life writing a book called "The English Constitution" which outlined his ideas on how England should go - ie secret ballots, legal equality, government by the people and equal electorial districts.
Henry Hunt - known as Henry "Orator" Hunt - was known as a great speaker of the time and spoke to large crowds in 1816 on matters of political reform. In 1818 he was selected as the radical candidate for Westminster - he wanted secret ballots and universal suffrage. He also spoke at the St Peter's Field meeting in 1819.
This made me recheck the notes I'd made in 1985 from a visit to my greatuncle Thomas Fildes who had said that their was a Sir in the family on the Fildes side but he could not recall who.
On the internet there are two trees posted who are linked to Samuel Luke's family and they both give Mary Fildes (the political activist, ie Samuel Luke's grandmother) as being born in 1789 and dying in 1876. Neither of them mention a son called Thomas - one only had James (Samuel Luke's father b 1812, d 1858) and Robert. The other has James (b 1812, d 1858), Robert, Henry (ie Henry Hunt Fildes), John (ie John Cartwright Fildes) and Sarah.
I searched the FreeBMD lists and found a death for a Mary Fildes in 1876 in Manchester, aged 87 (making her year of birth 1789) so I applied for it and she is listed as the widow of William Fildes, Reedmaker.
Firstly, can I assume that this Mary is the mother of my Thomas Paine Fildes as her husband is William Fildes, Reedmaker? Not sure how common Reedmakers were....
Secondly, as this Mary Fildes was born in 1789, died in 1876 in Manchester, married a William - can I assume this is the Mary Pritchard - particulalry as she named two of her sons after the political people of the day, why not a third?
Could I have some views please before I go completely mad on this - I realise my absolute proof would be to obtain the birth record for Thomas Paine Fildes but I have no idea where in Manchester they lived to try the church records!!
Claudia
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« Last Edit: Monday 14 March 05 13:56 GMT (UK) by claudia99 »
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ALL CENSUS INFORMATION CONTAINED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukFagan - Guernsey (1807), Wrexham (census 1841-1871), then Barton upon Irwell from around 1873 Fildes - Manchester, Chester, Liverpool, Chorlton, Ashton, Salford (descended from Mary Pritchard and William Fildes, Sir Samuel Luke's grandparents) Speakman - Manchester and Salford Bridge - Manchester (initially Ardwick) and Salford |
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Paul E
Guest
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Hi claudia
What a bloomin' interesting story!
The IGI has a Thomas Fildes christened 1823, Manchester, father William mother Margaret - but precious little else!
I think your detective work to date looks as if it might lead somewhere though!
good luck in your hunting
Paul
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Boongie Pam
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Lilian Palmer 1923 to 1987
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Sorry to correct you Paul but the date is 09 SEP 1821 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England on batch C097893.
It is quite common place to baptise children when they are a bit older. It maybe worth tracking this or someone here may know what is commonly found on the OPR for this parish. It may contain information on occupation of the father?
Pam
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All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright~~~~~~~~~~~ Dumfrieshire: Fallen, Fallon, Carruthers, Scott, Farish, Aitchison, Green, Ryecroft, Thomson, Stewart Midlothian: Linn/d, Aitken, Martin North Wales: Robins(on), Hughes, Parry, Jones Cumberland: Lowther, Young, Steward, Miller Somerset: Palmer, Cork, Greedy, Clothier http://fallon.rootschat.net
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Paul E
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Quite right Pam - more speed, less haste!
Paul 
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claudia99
RootsChat Senior
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Paul
It's a brilliant story isn't it?
Will try to check out this one for 1821, thanks...
Does anyone have any suggestions or comments on this? Its driving me mad, would appreciate someone's experience on this please....
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ALL CENSUS INFORMATION CONTAINED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukFagan - Guernsey (1807), Wrexham (census 1841-1871), then Barton upon Irwell from around 1873 Fildes - Manchester, Chester, Liverpool, Chorlton, Ashton, Salford (descended from Mary Pritchard and William Fildes, Sir Samuel Luke's grandparents) Speakman - Manchester and Salford Bridge - Manchester (initially Ardwick) and Salford |
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JAP
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Claudia,
Some musings.
As you have Mary's death certificate, you know exactly when she died. There might have been a death notice placed for her, and - given her background - there would quite possibly have been an obituary for her in the main Manchester newspapers (e.g. Manchester Guardian). A list of local newspapers appears on the Manchester Archives site at:
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/libraries/arls/news.htm
There might even have been an obituary in The Times?
And in Chester newspapers (see below).
And in less wellknown radical newspapers (Mary said to have been active in the Female Chartist Movement)?
Have you checked whether Mary (or William) left a Will which might mention her children?
The same source which you quoted says that, in the 1840s, Mary ran the Shrewsbury Arms in Frodsham St, Chester. If you could find her on the 1841 and 1851 censuses, I guess there's a remote chance that Thomas (if he's her son) might have been visiting there (or that, if you have Thomas and Sarah in any of the pre-1881 censuses, Mary - if she's his mother - might have been visiting them ...)
A church thought. Perhaps the family were non-conformists? The following FILDES people might well be totally unconnected but your source states that 2yo William Fildes was trampled and killed at Peterloo and his mother Ann badly injured. A William was christened 1817, parents Charles FILDES and Ann FRAY in the Manchester Unitarian (Cross St Presbyterian) church (they also had Frances 1820 and Ellen 1822).
Incidentally, the 1821 Thomas at Manchester Cathedral might not be all that promising. A William FILDES (variously spelled) married a Margaret HAMBLETON in 1808. A William and Margaret had Caroline and Mary Ann 1811, Joseph 1813, Joseph 1819, Thomas 1821, Sarah 1824, Thomas 1827 all Manchester Cathedral; also perhaps William 1816 at Gorton.
Good luck!
Judy
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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ec
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 573
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Hi Claudia
I found this all very interesting. I am sure you have had a good look on the web, so forgive me if I am suggesting something you are already aware of, but I found a message from someone looking at the ancestry of Samuel Luke Fildes which seemed to suggest there is a book "Luke Fildes, RA. A Victorian Painter", written by one of his sons and based on Sir Lukes correspondence which is now at the V & A - National Art Library. There was also reference to some work done by another son to check the facts within the book including some birth marriage and death certs, which have been deposited as an archive at the central library, Manchester. Might be worth investigating
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deadants
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More on Luke Fildes.
Link Here
Click on the painting. Also if you go to Google, click on image link and enter sir luke fildes, you will see a large collection of his works.
And a bit on reedmaing http://www.iol.ie/~npupipes/Reedmaking%20Made%20Easy.htm
deadants
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 15 March 05 15:16 GMT (UK) by trystan »
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Cleary, Doran, Boland, McCooey, McManus, O'brien, Martin, Savage, Wallis, McCollister, Wood. (More to come soon)
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claudia99
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 499
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Thanks to everyone who answered!
Judy,
I must admit, I never considered looking for a will - I don't have any wills from my family as yet. This could be a real opportunity. Also, the newspaper obit - really good point!! The nonconformist Church is also very interesting - thanks so much for your views on this.
EC,
Will look to read this book I think - it may give a few pointers.....
Interesting about the archive deposited at Manchester library - do you remember where you read that? I was actually at Manchester library last Friday!!
Deadants,
Thanks for the info on Luke and Reedmakers, it all adds to the background info!
Thanks once again to everyone.
If I do get any further, will let you all know!!
Claudia
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ALL CENSUS INFORMATION CONTAINED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukFagan - Guernsey (1807), Wrexham (census 1841-1871), then Barton upon Irwell from around 1873 Fildes - Manchester, Chester, Liverpool, Chorlton, Ashton, Salford (descended from Mary Pritchard and William Fildes, Sir Samuel Luke's grandparents) Speakman - Manchester and Salford Bridge - Manchester (initially Ardwick) and Salford |
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ec
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Claudia
I have sent you a PM
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Claudia,
I wondered what sort of Reedmaker William was! So I did look up the occupation - as, I assume, you have so I didn't mention it. It seems there were two sorts. The obvious one - makers of reeds for musical instruments and also something to do with making a weavers implement (a reed) or reed cloth or the comb used in tapestry.
Everybody,
If you don't already know (and as it can get distracting scrolling across posts) there is a wonderful site that will turn a great big long URL into a Tiny URL for you! It is at:
http://tinyurl.com/
You can then include the tinyURL in your post and it will still lead to the right site but it won't make the thread scroll horizontally.
Worth modifying previous posts?
Cheers,
Judy
Moderator Note: We've now modified the original post to use [ url ] and [ / url] to shorten the long link.
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 15 March 05 15:18 GMT (UK) by trystan »
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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claudia99
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 499
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OK update - one of Sir Luke Fildes's sisters, Isabella, has a descendant who has researched the tree and has confirmed (on a posting on the internet) that
1) Mary and William did have a son called Thomas
2) That they named some, if not all, after political figures/radical thinkers.
3) William and Mary had a son called George - G Fildes, son, was the person who registered the death of Mary Fildes on the certificate I have.
Its looking really good this.
I'm so impressed with the people who have helped on this.
Now to try to contact this ancestor who has the info on William and Mary,etc.
Thanks again, everyone,
I will let you know how I go on......
Claudia
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ALL CENSUS INFORMATION CONTAINED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukFagan - Guernsey (1807), Wrexham (census 1841-1871), then Barton upon Irwell from around 1873 Fildes - Manchester, Chester, Liverpool, Chorlton, Ashton, Salford (descended from Mary Pritchard and William Fildes, Sir Samuel Luke's grandparents) Speakman - Manchester and Salford Bridge - Manchester (initially Ardwick) and Salford |
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janan
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Hi Claudia,
What an exciting story  Do you already have Mary Fildes in 1871? If not let me know and I'll post details for you. Regards Jan 
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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claudia99
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No Jan, I don't have her yet on any census - if you do, let me know!!
Thanks
Claudia
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ALL CENSUS INFORMATION CONTAINED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukFagan - Guernsey (1807), Wrexham (census 1841-1871), then Barton upon Irwell from around 1873 Fildes - Manchester, Chester, Liverpool, Chorlton, Ashton, Salford (descended from Mary Pritchard and William Fildes, Sir Samuel Luke's grandparents) Speakman - Manchester and Salford Bridge - Manchester (initially Ardwick) and Salford |
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janan
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OK will post the 1871 details for you.
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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