Grenadier Guards early 1800s - COMPLETE - thanks!

[RunKitty]

Hello,

I am hoping that someone with experience in Military History can help me. 

I have been told that my ancestor Sergeant John Hall (born somewhere in Ireland in about 1789) joined the British forces as a Grenadier Guard in 1808 and served for 28 years.  He later moved to Canada and died there.  The original source of this information is unknown. 

John's wife was named Ann.  The information I have also says that he was part of the "11th Infantry Regiment".  Does this make sense?

I was wondering if there is any way to confirm that John was actually part of the Guards at this time and to find out more about his service.   All I have been able to find so far is general information on the Guards.  Some direction about where I should look would be appreciated.

Thanks,
RK

[mrwilson]

Hi,

   Prior to 1815, the Grenadiers were known as the Royal Regiment of Foot Guards.
http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/7453.aspx
-----
Seems the Grenadiers like to keep things in house..  'Find a Grenadier Ancestor'  .... http://grengds.com/static.php?content_id=9
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Until 1814 there was the 11th (or the North Devonshire) Regiment of Foot. After 1814 known as The Devonshire Regiment.
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Strength/c_RegimentsinPeninsula.html
  ----
Could it be a coincidence? .. a book by a John A Hall, A History of the Peninsular War: Volume VIII – The Biographical Dictionary of British Officers Killed and Wounded 1808-1814.  London: Greenhill Books, 1998.

mrwilson

[RunKitty]

Mr Wilson,

Thank you so much for all the information.   I am thrilled!!   It makes sense that John Hall would have joined the "11th Regiment" in 1808 - to take part in the Peninsular War.   The family story rings true so far.  This is a good sign.

I have read through the fascinating links you attached.  I wonder if my ancestor was at Waterloo?   If he was in the Guards for 28 years in the early 1800s, he would have had an interesting career!     

I will mail in a request to the Grenadier Guards to see if they can provide more information.  Thank you for the postal address.  The Regimental Archivist doesn't seem to have an e-mail address or phone number for inquiries.   Have you - or has anyone else who reads this post - requested information from the Guards about an ancestor's service in the early 1800s?   If so, what sort of records did they send? 

That book sounds interesting.  I checked my library and they don't have it.   I suspect the name is just a coincidence, but you never know...

Thanks again for your help!!
RK

[km1971]

The earliest either the Grenadier Guards or the 11th Regiment were in Canada was in 1838. So if your existing information is correct he must have moved to Canada after his discharge. Therefore his record should be on Findmypast, as he no doubt would have been awarded a pension. The index to these early records can be searched on the National Archives catalogue. This brings up this -

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3916803&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CJOHN%2CHALL&accessmethod=0

IE no mention of the Grenadier Guards. You need to be aware that the Guards museums charge 20-30 pounds for a lookup. You should confirm the information that he served in 'the Guards'. Most 'Line' regiments (ie not the Guards) had a guards company, so it may be that someone has confused this with the Guards regiments.

A further problem is that if you looked in any regiment at the time you would no doubt find at least one John Hall serving in each of them. The only safe way to research such a common name is to post the information you have on his child(ren) that says he was a soldier. And work from there.

Ken

[mrwilson]

 

I would think it a safe bet we have nailed your ancestor, John Hall, Irish, 28 years service, born c 1789 and in The Bloody Eleventh*.

I'm not sure how 19th century British army records are organised, but could be the case the initial regiment enlistment is maintained and transfers to other regiments are noted within the paperwork.
 
The reference Ken linked to states nothing about John being in the renamed 11th . Nor is he on this Devonshire Regiment list of 1815-1914.
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonIndexes/DevonRegiment2.html(Maybe incomplete)

So possible John was in both the 11th Foot Regiment and the Grenadiers, or like Ken suggests, in a Guards Company within the 11th. (If memory serves me correct, a full regiment is 10 companies of 100 men in each.)

The Keep Military Museum is a good source for 11th/Devonshire Regiment records. http://www.keepmilitarymuseum.org/research.php

mrwilson

* 11th Foot Regiment nickname earned at the Battle of Salamanca, 1812.

[RunKitty]

MrWilson and Ken,

Thanks for the links and information!   

Yes, John came to Canada after his discharge.   He is listed on his son's death certificate as "Sergeant" John Hall, but he was a farmer when he lived here. 

I noticed that the fee for ordering from the Grenadier Guards is quite high.  You are likely correct that I would find at least one John Hall in every regiment.  It makes sense to check further - and get more information - before I order anything from them.   

I will look at the information from the National Archives and the Keep Museum first.  Thanks for the advice and the links.   

If I understand correctly - he may have been in a "guards" part of a Regiment - not in a Regiment of the Grendier Guards?   I see how this could cause confusion.   

Thanks again for all of your assistance.  I now have several leads to follow and a lot of information  to consider.   Wonderful!   

RK
 

[neil1821]

If I understand correctly - he may have been in a "guards" part of a Regiment - not in a Regiment of the Grendier Guards?   I see how this could cause confusion.

I suspect Ken and MrWilson mean a Grenadier company rather than a Guards company.
Most infantry battalions had a grenadier company, 8 centre (or battalion) companies and a light company. The grenadier company was in theory made up of the biggest and most stalwart men of the battalion.

[gortonboy]

hi,,,i think his service record is available on the findmypast website  sergeaht john hall  11th foot,,b 1789 drury,cavan,ireland,,,served 28 years,,,served in the peninsular war.

[RunKitty]

Thanks Neil - and Thanks to MrWilson and Ken,

So, if I understand all of this correctly:

The 11th Foot Regiment DID exist in 1808, so it is quite possible that my ancestor was part of that Regiment at this time.   The link you provided to the National Archives site has a record of John Hall joining at this date, serving in the 11th Foot Regiment and being discharged in 1836.

The 11th Foot Regiment becomes the Devonshire Regiment in 1814 - and this is NOT a part of the Grenadier Guards.  It is something quite separate, though it would have its own Grenadier company.

The Grenadier Guards used to be called the Royal Regiment of Foot Guards until 1815.  This Royal Regiment of Foot Guards is NOT the same thing/part of the 11th Foot Regiment (later Devonshire Regiment)

I had originally misunderstood some of the earlier posts (my fault - sorry) and I thought that the 11th became part of the Grenadier Guards.   

So, it appears that it is possible that:
1.  John Hall remained with the 11th and may have been part of their Grendier company.  Though the fact that he doesn't show up on the list Ken provided is a bit of a snag.    
2.  John left the 11th and joined the Grenadier Guards before 1815.   
3.  John moved to another group altogether and was part of their Grenadier company??  

Great - I have some wonderful leads to explore.  The links you have given me will be a great help.

I have researched ancestors who fought in both world wars, but I have never tried to research anyone's military service before that.  Thank you  all so much for your help.  This was completely new to me and you have been wonderful.  I am very interested to find out about John, my 4x great grandfather!!

RK