Phillips family Pentrych 1822 on

[Gwaelodian]

I found Jemima in a census living in Bedwas, listed as a char woman post 1875.  I think it must have said on an earlier census that she was born in Bedwas, hence, I looked there.

[suzard]

The marriage you give is probably correct in that it ties in with the birth of their first child in 1848. The death cannot be the one as Elizabeth was born to her in 1864. As far as I can see Jemima had no children with Abraham.  She was 44 when listed as  married to Abraham Phillips in 1971 census. I estimate that the Phillips children ranged from 7-19 when they married and can see no sign of any other off-spring. I don't know Jemima's family name but know she came from Bedwas. As I wrote before, I think, it is likely that she and the younger children went there to live after the mining accident. Thanks again. How are you so very good at this?  Have you been doing it for ages or do you have a paid sub to one of the more extensive search engines?  So very grateful... and so very interested.  Thanks.

Are you certain daughter Elizabeth was born 1864? Do you have her birth certificate ?

She is age 17 on 1881 census - but that is only the age given on census -not year she was born - possibly she was b 1863 -unless you have certificate??

I posted a possible marriage reg for Abraham & Jemima - her name was Jones

You need the marriage certificate to find if she was spinster orwidow when married - father's name  & occupation

You say it is "likely" the younger children went with Jemima when Abraham died??
 No proof of this. They may have gone to live with married siblings ?  Elizabeth by 1881 was living with Phillip and wife
Deborah was working as a servant
There is no sign of the children living in Bedwas after their father's death - and no sign of Jemima living there either??? So really all you can do is wonder where they went to live. All we know at the moment  is Jemima states on census she was born in Bedwas. That doesn't necessarily mean that is where she was living pre marriage to Abraham - or she went back to live there after his demise.

I do have access to a couple of paid sites - and have been doing family history for a very long time - pre internet!

You have just posted that you found Jemima in Bedwas on a census post 1875

I posted details of the 1881 census -which would be the next census after Abraham's demise (census are every 10 years) -Jemima is a charwoman b. Bedwas - but visiting someone in Nelson
Jemima possibly died before 1891 census - haven't found her yet - so we don't know where she went to live

Suz


Suz

[Gwaelodian]

I have no birth certificates.  My data comes only from the minimal free searches - I haven't done this before and my interest only arose from the project to get the local mining remains preserved. I am overwhelmed by the research you have done on my behalf....... and so grateful. I don't think I could have got to where you are.... and certainly not as quickly. This evening, I hope to go through the various references you have sent and try to collate them so that I can see just  where I am going with it all.
I knew Elzabeth was living with Phillip and his wife from my own documents (Deeds).  There is an interesting start to it all. Abraham Philllips signed the deeds for a Freehold Lease with a cross, yet I know he comes from an educated family and it seems highly unlikely  that he could not write his name.  I suspect he was making a protest that the Deed is in English when he was a Welsh speaker. His father was an Ivorite,  prominently promoting the Welsh Language.  The Deed states that Abraham Phillips must 'finish' the house within six months. It gives him and his heirs rights for 99 years. It interests me that an Overman in the colliery should have privilege from his boss, Thomas William Booker, and it also interests me that he had such a large ( for the time) dwelling.  After Abrahams's death, Jemima gets permission from Booker to let another live there, until, as you say, the 1881 census shows Phillip in the cottage again. Subsequently, he 'renounces probate' and sells the cottage to another.  I suspect that means he decided to forgo his rights to the Freehold Lease.  I have tried to find the cottage on earlier tithe maps - thinking that abraham could have been restoring/repairing a building, for it still mystifies me a little that Abraham is given time to finish the house while the Freehold Lease ( an engima of words in itself) is for a dwelling and land....... 

[suzard]

. It interests me that an Overman in the colliery should have privilege from his boss, Thomas William Booker, and it also interests me that he had such a large ( for the time) dwelling.  After Abrahams's death, Jemima gets permission from Booker to let another live there, until, as you say, the 1881 census shows Phillip in the cottage again. Subsequently, he 'renounces probate' and sells the cottage to another.  I suspect that means he decided to forgo his rights to the Freehold Lease.  I have tried to find the cottage on earlier tithe maps - thinking that abraham could have been restoring/repairing a building, for it still mystifies me a little that Abraham is given time to finish the house while the Freehold Lease ( an engima of words in itself) is for a dwelling and land....... 

An overman was quite an important position at a colliery - there would be one overman to one colliery - with the position came a house and gardens and coal- you would expect the house to be of a considerable size
I remember when I lived in Glamorganshire - my friend purchased the old colliery manager's house -a beautiful house - 6 bedrooms - next door was a slightly smaller house - but detached and large garden -which was possibly the overman's house - I am "supposing" here but you should be able to research further. Abraham would have been a very trustworthy man who knew most aspects of coal mining. Regarding the lease - when we moved to Glamorgan we were lucky to buy a freehold property - as most of the propertys had the land on a 99 year lease - which meant you owned the building but not the land it stood upon - and a rent had to be paid for the leasehold land - this was within the last 30-40 years.

Suz

[Gwaelodian]

Yes, our first house in Wales was leasehold. The term 'freehold lease' is more confusing. Were there leased leases?  Freehold and leasehold  seem to stand in opposition. The other question  relates to the cottage and Abraham's six months to finish the building, commencing in 1859.  I see Wood Cottage on the early maps fwhere it was called Ty'n y Coed - though not in the census.  The Deeds start with the Welsh name but at some point, the name Wood Cottage appears and Ty'n y Coed is another cottage, built adjacently some time later.  I believe that the lodger of Abraham Phillips, Henry George ( in the 1871 Census), moved into this and subsequently built the row of cottages known as Georgetown.

 How can I find out if the house of Abraham Phillips was new when he moved in, or a renovation of an existing building and outhouses?  It obviously belonged to Booker. Where do I look to find the Thomas William Booker estate papers?  I have googled it to no avail.

You are a mine of information.... forgive me if I am over tapping it! And thanks, again. N

[osprey]

there's a burial for an Elizabeth Phillips in Pentyrch parish church 30/8/1866 & she was 41 so could be a match. I can't spot a death reg to go with the burial, though.

Can't tell where you are from your profile, but you may be able to access subscription sites in a library. Findmypast has transcriptions of some Glamorgan pairsh records & scans of the actual register. Both of Abraham's marriages are there, so would save you buying the certs.

[Morganllan]

There is a death of Elizabeth Phillips, age 40, in 1866 (Sep Q)
Cardiff volume 11a page 118

[osprey]

my only excuse is a long day! Off to bed now...


 

[Gwaelodian]

Thanks to both Osprey and morganllan.   This site is hooking me..... the more you send, the more I know I need to learn and do!  I think Elizabeth Phillips was buried at Pentrych.  Thanks for the hints re getting searches done via library links. I am pretty well stuck at home and cannot get in... so the internet works well for me..... especially as I get these responses. Never been involved in blogs before.  This one is so interesting. Thanks again.