Was my 2nd Great Grandfather William Williams born in Herefordshire?

[nweald]

My 2nd Great Grandfather William Williams was a butcher (born c1789) and died in the City of London on the 20th March, 1847.  I do not know where he was born but it has been suggested that as there was a niece called Phoebe Williams visiting the family in the 1861 Census and she was born c1835 in Kington, Herefordshire perhaps William Williams was born in Herefordshire somewhere.  If anybody could help me with this investigation as to his town of birth, and anything about his butcher apprenticeship it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

nweald

[Kay99]

I am not sure this helps but just in case. 

As you say  Phoebe Williams who would be the niece of William Williams lists her birth as 1835 in Kington Herefordshire.  The only Phoebe that I can see at the moment that would fit with this is the Phebs Williams b 1833 living at Little Burcher? in the parish of Stanton upon Arrow Herefordshire.  Stanton or Staunton upon/on Arrow is a few miles north east of Kington and may have listed as her birth place as the nearest main settlement when she was away from home in London

In 1841 the family are as below - all born in County  and in addition they had two nurse children and 4 lodgers

Thos Williams 44 Ag Lab
Elizabeth Williams 40
Thos Williams 12
Mary Williams 10
Phebs Williams 8
Isack Williams 5
Charles Williams 2
HO107 Piece 428 Book 34

I think this is the same family in 1851 again living in Little Burcher, Stanton upon Arrow but this time in Radnorshire!  Elizabeth and all the children are listed as born in Stanton upon Arrow

Thomas Williams 54 b Briley, Herefordshire
Elizabeth Williams 44
Richard Williams 29
Thomas Williams 22
Mary Williams    20
Isaac Williams 13
Charles Williams 11
Charlotte Williams 8
George Williams 7
Anne L Williams    5
William Williams 2
Jane Williams 3 Months granddaughter
HO107 Piece 2492 Folio 415 Page 1

I can't see Pheobe at all in 1851 or any of the family in 1861 but by 1871 she is still unmarried and living with her mother Elizabeth and family in Little Bircher in the parish of Stanton on Arrow listed as born 1835 in Stanton  RG10 Piece 2722 Folio 100 Page 8

Kay

[nweald]

Hi Kay,
Thanks very much for the information about Phoebe Williams’ family.  Have you any idea why the family is listed on the 1851 Welsh Census and not the one for England?  Did the country borders change in that period?  I’m sorry for asking questions for which you may not know the answers. 
It would seem the more you read the Census returns that my 2nd Great Grandfather William Williams was likely to be a brother of Thomas Williams who was born (according to the 1851 Welsh Census) in Brilley, Herefordshire.  All I need to do now is find out where I can obtain Parish Records of Births, and Baptisms for the 1789s for the village of Brilley.  Any ideas?
Thanks once again Kay,
nweald

[Kay99]

 In 1841 Stanton on Arrow was in the Presteigne Registration District which spans  the Radnorshire/Herefordshire border and in the subdistrict of Kington.  In 1851 it was still in the Presteigne Registration District it was in the subdistrict of Brilley, which could account for the switch to Radnorshire and Wales. 

Certainly the majority of the parish/village appears to be missing from the 1861 census which could account for my inability to find the family in 1861.  I live in Herefordshire, but our address and post code is Worcestershire  - very confusing!!

Family Search has parish records which include both Brilley and Stanton on Arrow https://familysearch.org/search , but Williams is a really common name in the area

Kay

[nweald]

Thanks once again Kay.  I'll give familysearch a whirl and see how I get on.  As you say Williams is a very common name in your area and everywhere else as well!  What is funny is that most of William Williams' sons were given a second Christian name, and the same with the next two generations.  This is of course makes it a little bit easier checking out the ancestry. 
One last question - if it says on the 1851 Census that Thomas Williams was born in Briley/Brilley, and it is possible that my 2nd Great Grandfather (William Williams) was also born there - were they born in Herefordshire (England) or Radnorshire (Wales)? 
I use to live in Essex but now in New Zealand.

Martin

[Shirley Sweetland]

Hi there is a William Williams on the 1841 census age 50 Butcher at Liberty of Saffron Hill, Middlesex. "Y" born that area/county.

Hope this helps
Shirley
a Londoner in Oz

[Kay99]

If the Pheobe Williams family is related then you would look in Herefordshire, but if the William Williams that Shirley found could be your ancestor then Middlesex could be more likely

Kay

[nweald]

Hi Shirley,
I've probably misled people by not mentioning that I had found my 2nd Great Grandfather on the 1841 Census where the Williams family were living at 'The Rectory House' in Saint Nicholas Olave Church Yard - just off Bread Street which is just off Cheapside as follows:-
William Williams 50 Butcher 'N' Not born in county
Hannah Williams 45 Sextoness 'N' Not born in county
William -"- 15 Printer's Assistant 'Y' Yes born in county
Joseph -"-  5 'Y' Yes to born in county
Census Reference 1841 (HO 107) Piece 722 Folio 27/11
As you can see my 2nd Great Grandmother had an interesting occupation of 'Sextoness'
The odd thing is that I use to go to lunch at a pub called the Dandy Roll in Bread Street when I used to work in the city and didn't realise that my ancestors lived north and south of the river.  Anyway, thanks for all your suggestions but I think I must look to Herefordshire as to where my Williams family originated.  It's nice to know after all these years. 
Thanks Kay for all your help
Martin

[Kay99]

There is a baptism of Phebe Williams at Titley in Herefordshire on 27 Jan 1833 with parents Thomas and Elizabeth Williams (and their other children also appear to have been baptised in Titley). 

Titley is near to Stanton (wonderful pub called the Stag) but the hamlets in the Welsh Borders are really spread out so do look at the Bing Maps OS base map or other similar to see if other hamlets are nearby that might be relevant. 

Good luck!!
Kay