Another illegitimate child?

[Arranroots]

Hi folks

I hope it is helpful to point out that there are several other threads on this subject - it might save duplication of effort if these were linked to this thread, Jillie.

kind regards, Arranroots 

[Jillie42]

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,212546.0.html

Right, I've got my bottle of wine and a glass 'cos it looks like I'm going to be on this step for a long time tonight  

[Valda]

So to start from the known this then is Mary Ann for definite on the 1901 and 1891 censuses with husband John.

1901 census RG13 378 folio 160
2 Hope Street Newington
Mary Sutcliffe 32 Rotherhithe London Wife Married
John Sutchiffe 32 Newington London Head Married General Labourer
Mary A E Sutcliffe 10 Newington London Daughter 
Florence Sutcliffe 6  Newington London Daughter
John J V Sutcliffe 4 Newington London Son
Henry Sutcliffe 2 Newington London Son

1891 census RG12 360 folio 87
62 Faraday Street Newington
John Sutcliff 53 Todmorden Manchester Head Married Coal Porter
Mary E Sutcliff 51 Thaxted Essex Wife Married
Martha Sutcliff 22 Bermondsey London Daughter Packer
John Sutcliff 20  Bermondsey London Son Married
Hannah Sutcliff 18 Bermondsey London Daughter Packer
Sarah Sutcliff 15  Bermondsey london Daughter Packer
Rhoda Sutcliff 11 Bermondsey London Daughter
Mary A Sutcliff 19 Rotherhithe London Daughter in law Married
Mary A E Sutcliff 2/12 Walworth London Granddaughter

So a birth year varying between circa 1872 and 1869 but consistent with the birthplace of Rotherhithe.

This is a map showing the different parishes mentioned that form a line along the south side of the River Thames

http://www.eastsurreyfhs.org.uk/parishes/parish_map.htm

The further east you go generally speaking the poorer you get.  Whether Mary Ann was actually born in Rotherhithe or not she certainly thought she was so you would probably expect that her formative years at least were spent there.
Have you looked for a baptism in St Mary Rotherhithe registers?

When illegitimate people marry it is always difficult to tell how much they fabricate about their fathers. They change the surname to match their own but the other details could be correct, or are the details of a stepfather or other close male relative.

Not all births were registered. Not all births were registered in the surname you expect. Hannah can appear in records as Anna or worse Ann.

Bermondsey and Rotherhithe by 1869 were part of the St Olave Southwark poor law union not the St Saviour union.
Christchurch workhouse - St Saviours workhouse has existing records for births 1848-94 and creed registers 1856-1938. There are also poor law removal records 1866-1930.
A creed register for instance (which is the nearest you have to an admission register for this period) not only gives the creed - the religion of the person being admitted, but also where they are admitted from and when, crucially their age or year of birth and when they were discharged. A removal order would give more information.

Regards

Valda

[Jillie42]

Thanks Valda,

I've also discovered that the vacination records for the Southwark region area at the Southwark local study library

http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/records.asp?cat=091-southwkmisc&cid=1-1

I'm going to have to go there and see if there is any record of a Mary Anne Lane.

I'll have to find out if there were any for St Olave resgion as well and I'll have to check the parish registers for St Mary Rotherhithe.

[Jillie42]

http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxsl.asp?com=1&i=33&nbKey=1&stylesheet=xsl\A2A_com.xsl&keyword=st%20olave%20&properties=0601

Just found this too. It seems that by 1871 the workhouse was only used for able bodies men and the date of completion of the infirmary is a bit vague. So was there a St Olave's workhouse by 1971?

And I've found this
http://www.institutions.org.uk/workhouses/england/lon/st_olave_workhouse.htm

[Valda]

St Olave Union

'Parish Street Workhouse
The existing St Olave parish workhouse was taken over by the new Union and continued in operation for many years.

In 1868, the recently formed Metropolitan Asylums Board set up six new Sick Asylum Districts for the purposes of providing hospital care for the poor on separate sites from workhouses. One of the new Districts, named Rotherhithe, comprised the St Olave Union and the parishes of St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, and St Mary, Rotherhithe. However, the new hospital required by the new scheme was felt to be too expensive and, instead, the Rotherhithe Sick Asylum District was reconstituted as an enlarged St Olave Poor Law Union.

The expanded union acquired the existing workhouses from Bermondsey at Tanner Street, and from Rotherhithe at Lower Road, which were redeployed to provide the separate workhouse and hospital accommodation that was required. Lower Road then became used for accommodating able-bodied males. In 1904, the St Olave Union was renamed the Parish of Bermondsey.

Lower Road Infirmary
In 1873-5, the St Olave Guardians erected a new infirmary


Of course if Hannah remarried as I said Mary Ann as a child might be known in another surname. The workhouse creed register for St Saviour should at least give you an age for Hannah which would be a starting point for searching the 1871 census for possible candidates and then searching forward.'

Regards

Valda

[Jillie42]

Thanks Valda. That clears things up and thank you for your helpful contribution - it is appreciated.

I did check the Docklands ancestors for parish regsiters for St Mary Rothgerhithe but the cut off date is at present 1870. I'm not sure whether this is because the records are unavailable past that date or whether the web site has simply not transcribed any further. There was no Hannah Lane listed either and of the "Lane"surnames it did bring up none were Anna or any that looked like a "Hannah" derivative.

This may well mean that Hannah was not baptised in the Rotherhithe area. Again, it could be that she simply wasn't from Rotherhithe or like many of my London ancestors, was actually a catholic and not baptised at the parish chuch. This remains to be investigated.

Where exactly are the St Saviour inmate and creed records kept? I have next week off work and it would be a good time to go and get a look at the originals.

[Valda]

St Mary Rotherhithe registers have been deposited at the LMA up to at least 1948.
London was a magnet for young women since it needed a constant supply of female servants. As such Hannah could have come from anywhere in the country but particularly any of the surrounding London counties.
St Saviour creed register will give you details of Hannah's creed/religion.

At outline of Southwark local studies collection in more detail

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/DiscoverSouthwark/LocalHistoryLibrary/SourcesFamilyHistory.html

Regards

Valda

[Mick-S]

is there any way to get in touch with Jillie42, as she was was last seen 2012, I believe we may be related as my grand mother was Mary Ann Sutcliffe.