Which 'Robert Williams' - death certificate? Help needed

[Matt62]

Hi,

I've had a bit of a problem tracing one of my family lines and I was wondering if anyone here could assist me.

My 3rd great grandparents Robert Williams and Margaret Wilkie both lived in Glasgow from the late 19th century till the 1930s and although they lived together at 126 Piccadilly Street in Anderston in the 1901 census with their 8 children, they were an unmarried couple. Margaret is described in the census as his "housekeeper" and my twice great grandmother Mary was born 'illegitimate' according to her birth certificate. I have never found any record of a marriage.

Without a marriage certificate, I've had to rely on death certificates to take me back one more generation. The problem is that although I managed to find Margaret Wilkie's death certificate for 1937, since she was still living in 126 Piccadilly Street and her daughter Mary (my 2x great grandmother) signed it, I have not been so lucky with Robert Williams.

He doesn't seem to have been living with Margaret Wilkie after 1901. They don't show up, as far as I can tell, in the 1911 census and on Margaret's death certificate she is put down as "single" not "widowed" or "married". It states: "Margaret Wilkie Williams otherwise Margaret Wilkie (Single)".

Should I presume from this that Robert left Margaret and the children to marry/go off with another woman?

I know that he lived past 1905, since he is not mentioned as being "deceased" on his daughter's marriage certificate. I also know that he died before 1943, since his son William's death certificate has him as deceased.

This is further complicated by the fact that Robert was born in Ireland, which means that I cannot look for a birth certificate in the Scottish records.

Since I know that Robert was a Ship Rigger and according to the 1901 census (and possibly a mention of him in the 1891 census) he was aged around 40 and so would have been born circa. 1861, I tried to find a Robert Williams who died between 1905 - 1943 who was born around 1861, had an occupation similar to a Ship Rigger etc. Margaret Wilkie was put down as being aged 39 in the 1901 census and since she was 75 according to her death certificate in 1937, it seems to have been accurate as far as she was concerned. Yet I can find no Robert Williams born around 1861 and died between 1905 - 1943 who fits my criteria.

I feel like I'm searching for a needle in a haystack. I found two men who sort of fitted the criteria, both of whom were married to other women:

A "John Robert Williams" who died in 1934 aged 84, had been a sail-maker and living in Beltane Street in Anderston

And

A "Robert Williams" who died in 1932 aged 78 who had been a "Shipwright" and living in Scotstoun and Yoker.

The problem for me is that neither of these two match the criteria identically: they are both older than "my Robert" would have been according to the census criteria, one has "John" before his name (does this rule him out?) and they both have occupations that are similar but not exactly the same as a "Ship Rigger". It may be that Robert progressed to a different sea-related job, yet how am I too know this?

My Robert might be neither of these men and that's my problem...how can I verify which death certificate out of the various on Scotland's People within the timeframe of 1905-1943 is my ancestor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I also have the relevant documents saved on my computer if anyone would be kind enough to assist me and would like to have a look at them.

[Kay99]

I think the family is on the Scottish census in 1911 - I searched for the youngest child Malcolm Williams in Anderston and he is living with his mother Maggie, sister Margaret age 8 and older married brother Robt married with wife Ann Jane and two children.   Maggie is listed as a widow

If you sent me a pm with your email I can send you the image

Kay

[Matt62]

I think the family is on the Scottish census in 1911 - I searched for the youngest child Malcolm Williams in Anderston and is living with his mother Maggie, sister Margaret age 8 and older married brother Robt married with wife Ann Jane and two children.   Maggie is listed as a widow

If you sent me a pm with your email I can send you the image

Kay

Dear Kay,

Great stuff. I must have missed it! I will certainly pm you with my email.

[RJ_Paton]

It would appear that Margaret in describing herself as Margaret Wilkie Williams (or being described as such by others) considered herself as the wife of your Robert. He, on the other hand does not appear to agree by describing her as "housekeeper" - indicating perhaps that he is already married.

Re the children - is Robert listed as the father ?

The problem is (as I found in my own similar enquiry) he may not be named Williams at all - although if listed on the childrens birth certificate as such he may have been telling the truth about that bit.

Re Piccadilly street try checking the valuation rolls, you may be able to see a tenancy there (no Wilkie or Williams listed at 126 in the 1913/14 rolls)

Beltane Street was originally called Belgrave Street (the name change happened in the 1920's) and is less than half a mile from Piccadilly street.

[Matt62]

Ok, if the family listed in the 1911 census is the one I am looking for and if it is my Margaret who is the widow, I still have a huge problem (and I say if since I'm not 100% certain).

On Scotland's People there are five Robert Williams' living in Glasgow who died between 1900 and 1911. None of them live in Anderston and the strange thing is that Margaret Wilkie died in 1937 in the same house she was living in on the 1901 census, yet if it is her on the 1911 census she is living elsewhere with her son.

The five men are:

Robert Williams who died in Govan in 1904 and was a Railway Labourer married to Agnes Wilson

Robert Williams who died in Govan in 1906 and was a wire work labourer married to an Alice Ward

Robert Williams who died in Hutchestown in 1908 and was an Ironsmith married to an Elizabeth Balfour

A Robert Edward Williams who died aged only 19 in 1908

A Robert Williams who died in Gourock aged only 27 (far too young) in 1909

None of these match my 'Robert' who was a ship rigger (on the census, his children's birth and death certificates etc.) and plus they are all married to other women ?

Yet if that is my Margaret on the 1911 census where she is described as a "widow" then reason surely dictates that he must be one of these men...Hmm, yet the shoe doesn't fit...

This has been the most confusing ancestry search for me yet 

Where on earth is Robert? lol     

[Matt62]

It would appear that Margaret in describing herself as Margaret Wilkie Williams (or being described as such by others) considered herself as the wife of your Robert. He, on the other hand does not appear to agree by describing her as "housekeeper" - indicating perhaps that he is already married.

Re the children - is Robert listed as the father ?

The problem is (as I found in my own similar enquiry) he may not be named Williams at all - although if listed on the childrens birth certificate as such he may have been telling the truth about that bit.

Re Piccadilly street try checking the valuation rolls, you may be able to see a tenancy there (no Wilkie or Williams listed at 126 in the 1913/14 rolls)

Beltane Street was originally called Belgrave Street (the name change happened in the 1920's) and is less than half a mile from Piccadilly street.

Dear Falk,

Thank you so much for the info and help I will do as you suggest. That he might have already had a wife, might be helpful too although if it is Margaret listed in the 1911 census as a "widow" none of the Robert Williams' who died between 1905-1911 seem to match mine - ie none were ship riggers or sea related jobs, a few were far too young.

The reason I am trying so hard not to give up with this line is that my grandmother was particularly close to her grandmother Mary Williams. I would be disappointed if I could go no further back with the Williams line.

This has been one of the toughest yet for me. Why couldn't they just have married and made my life easier! 

[Matt62]

Re the children - is Robert listed as the father ?

The problem is (as I found in my own similar enquiry) he may not be named Williams at all - although if listed on the childrens birth certificate as such he may have been telling the truth about that bit.

Oh, yes he is listed as the father on the 1901 census (ie "son", "daughter") and on his children's birth certificates where they are all put down as being "illegitimate". So it does appear that he was at least the father of Margaret's children.

I should note also that Margaret Wilkie is down in the 1901 census as Margaret Wilkie, not Williams.

[Matt62]

The Margaret listed on the 1911 census must have been my Margaret, I think, since she is listed as a "bag sewer" and Margaret's death certificate in 1937 lists her occupation as a "sack sewer".

I checked the valuation rolls for 1905 and 1895 and nothing came up for Piccadilly. Also no Williams or Wilkie, as far as I see, seemed to match.

The mystery deepens for me. No Robert Williams between 1905-1911 matches the man I am looking for, yet Margaret (apparently) calls herself a "widow" in 1911.

[Kay99]

I wonder if Robert had just left the family and widow was a title Margaret assumed??