Author Topic: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras  (Read 12059 times)

Offline Who is Ursula?

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #18 on: Monday 03 December 12 23:07 GMT (UK) »
Avm you are right,

My link between Ursula (Ivy Marguerite) and James Ellis is not right, unless it is a complete coincidence that he had two Margherite women in his life. This means I know even less about her than I thought.....

Offline avm228

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #19 on: Monday 03 December 12 23:13 GMT (UK) »
Avm you are right,

My link between Ursula (Ivy Marguerite) and James Ellis is not right, unless it is a complete coincidence that he had two Margherite women in his life. This means I know even less about her than I thought.....

Not to worry. I must say this is a tricky one but we do like a challenge on Rootschat :)
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Offline Andro93

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 13 December 12 20:15 GMT (UK) »
   I think the Joseph Henry Adams born in 1879 died in 1900, but there was another (related) Joseph Henry Adams born in 1877, baptised 30th May 1877 at St James Hampstead (son of James Ellis Adams and Ulissa). Address 20 George Street. All these Adamses descend from the same Northamptonshire ancestors. What puzzles me is the lack of any evidence for Joseph and Marguerite's marriage, even in the Irish records.     Andrew Wilson

Offline Valda

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 15 December 12 22:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi

The 1877 baptism is an adult baptism of the older Joseph Henry Adams

30th May 1877 St James Hampstead born 25th October 1842
Joseph Henry Adams parents James Ellis and Ulissa
20 George Street, no father's occupation given
Next entry same day born 4th October 1846
Ann Adams parents Eli and Elizabeth, 20 George Street, no father's occupation given

Possible marriage for this couple 6th August 1865 St Mary Marylebone
James Adams full age Bachelor Boot closer Marylebone James Adams Wheelwright
Ann Adams full age spinster Marylebone Eli Adams Bootmaker
Both signed
Witnesses Eli Adams and the mark of Frances Adams

Joseph Adams aged 8 born Long Buckby Northamptonshire is with his parents James and Ulissa on the 1851 census HO107 1740 folio 161 in Northampton.
Joseph H Adams aged 28 born Northamptonshire and his wife Ann aged 24 born Northamptonshire are with their two young children (son James E aged 5 and daughter Elizabeth aged 2) on the 1871 census at 20 George Street Pancras. Joseph was a boot closer. RG10 221 folio 25.

Isn't Ursula/Marguerite's birth certificate and marriage certificate consistent - father's name Henry Adams licensed victualler not Joseph Henry Adams in the boot trade? There doesn't seem any proven connection to the Northamptonshire family or to any Joseph Henrys unless the birth certificate actually specifies those two names?

A birth certificate is not proof of a legitimate birth. The registrar would be reliant on (the mother) informant's information. Mothers registered their children as legitimate if they were able to bluff it out with the registrar.


Regards

Valda
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Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 15 December 12 23:42 GMT (UK) »
The death of a Joseph H Adams aged 36 was registered in Marylebone reg dist in March quarter 1918. The death could have occurred in late 1917 and been registered in late 1918.

That is the only likely death I see of a Joseph or Henry Adams, i.e. by likely age and location. (When you said later known as Henry, that was from Ivy's marriage certificate only?)

Absent any other lead, I might get that death certificate to see whether perhaps his wife was the informant or there is any other useful information that could be used to rule him in or out as a possible person.

A Joseph Henry Adams birth was registered in Mile End reg dist in March quarter 1882; again, the birth could have been late 1881, so at death in late 1917 he could have been 36.

There was a Joseph H Adams of exactly the right age in the Royal Marines. (I won't post 1911 census details, but the place of birth is somewhat off.)

A deceased mother and a father overseas in the military could explain a child boarding with third parties at a young age.

(The story recounted in the letter from your grandmother had already reminded me of The Little Princess, and would even more so in that case!)

HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline Who is Ursula?

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 16 December 12 00:27 GMT (UK) »
Hello all, with thanks for your continued interest in my genealogical conundrum!

On Ursula's marriage certificate  of 1932 (where she is Ursula Ruby Adams) she says her father is Henry Adams (deceased). 

On what I believe to be her birth certificate of 1906 it says her father is Henry Adams, mother Marguerite Adams (formerly strain).

In the London Gazette 1948 using her husband's name (my grandfather) as a connection she is called 'Shiraishi, Ivy Marguerite Ruby Ursula, known as Ruby Ursula Adams'

Being a four year old lodger in 1911 would be explained by her father being away, if her mother is no longer on the scene or has died.

I have tried looking up her dubious movements during the war years. I think she was accused of illegal abortions, but I don't think it went to court.

You are all right, the link between her and a Joseph Henry Adams as father is tenuous. Thanks Janey Canuck for the suggestion I get that death certificate, maybe it will help.

If anyone has further suggestions I would appreciate it as I am now scrambling around in the dark, getting more and more confused.

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 16 December 12 02:42 GMT (UK) »
The 1877 baptism is an adult baptism of the older Joseph Henry Adams

30th May 1877 St James Hampstead born 25th October 1842
Joseph Henry Adams parents James Ellis and Ulissa
20 George Street, no father's occupation given
Next entry same day born 4th October 1846
Ann Adams parents Eli and Elizabeth, 20 George Street, no father's occupation given

This now makes the only relevant death I could find make sense:

Ulissa Adams, age 80, Holborn, 1889 (born c1809)

i.e. that makes sense for the mother of someone born 1842, not the mother of someone born 1877. ;)



Pursuing my Royal Marines theory ... I'm wondering whether Marguerite might actually not have been French.

First, there's good info to support the Irish possibility -- in the 1901 Irish census, there is no Marguerite (or variation) Strain specifically, but there are a load of Margarets and Maggies, for example, and loads of Strains generally.

But back to the Royal Marines ... they were based in Lympstone, Devon, between Exeter and Exmouth. (There is also a Sgt J H Adams shown on the Royal Marines Medal Roll 1914-1920 at findmypast.)

After Ivy's birth, French-born Marguerite SATRIN was a governess in Ideford, Devon, nearby. She died unmarried in Maidstone in 1959 at age 79. (Satrin is a very uncommon name in France: only 3 births 1891-1915, the earliest that geopatronym.com shows.)

Child of unmarried parents, fostered out and told her mother was deceased? A bit far-fetched, but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

But "born in France" is a not-uncommon tale to cover a multitude of ... things. My gr-grfather's sister's descendants were told that about their ancestor, the sister; I've worked on the odd such tale on forums like this. Quite often (and I suspect in my gr-grfather's sister's case), it really meant born on the wrong side of the blanket, rather than the other side of the Channel.

It's too bad we have no idea who the brothers were or how a stepmother came into the picture. Here's another theory, though, that would go with a Royal Marine who was absent and did take responsibility for his daughter to whose mother he was not married.

December quarter 1911 in Willesden:
a Joseph H Adams married Florence E Naptin

She was Florence Emily Naptin; parents Thomas George Naptin and Louisa Mitchell married in 1903 although they were together in 1901. (In 1901, Florence's age is mistranscribed at Ancestry as 1 rather than 10.) Ah, here we are: birth registered as Neptune, as they are shown in 1891.

Anyway, the Adams-Naptin births are:

Sept quarter 1911 (i.e. pre-marriage)
Elsie L E, Willesden 3a 563
George E H, Willesden 3a 522
... odd, as they would have to be twins

Sept quarter 1913
Violet E, Kensington

Sep 1916
Iris D, Paddington (mother shown as Napton)

Sept quarter 1918
Irene J, Paddington
-- could be a posthumous birth if father died late 1917

Dec quarter 1920
Edward R, Paddington
-- died 1923 Paddington
-- could be a birth to the widow ...

In any event, this appears to be the story of the Joseph H Adams who married in 1911. There isn't really another London-area marriage for the name Joseph H(enry) Adams from 1900 onward, early enough for there to be children by 1917, except one in Stepney in 1900. But what it would seem to indicate, for this one, is that there was only one brother in 1917 in that family, whoever they were.

These locations are also consistent with the Kilburn place of birth for the Royal Marine. And not far off the location of the death registered in early 1918, Marylebone, which resembles the Royal Marine by birthdate -- who of course is not necessarily our JHA any more than any others are. Our JHA could have had sons born before 1911.

But when investigating a "possible", I tend to try to follow them to the bitter end!


Question -- did Marguerite herself register the birth? (If she had died in childbirth or been incapacitated and then died, a third party would have registered it. It can just help to know for sure. I'm thinking, if she did die not long after the birth, and if the names are all true of course, it could be that JHA would have married her had he not been serving overseas when the pregnancy became known and the child was born, and didn't have a chance to do that because she died.)
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Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 16 December 12 02:53 GMT (UK) »
Oh, hold on. I went back to the beginning and I just want to be clear and sure.

The birth certificate actually says JOSEPH HENRY ADAMS? and not HENRY ADAMS?

The initial post says Henry, but the later one says Joseph Henry. Just want to make sure we really are looking for a Joseph Henry.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline Who is Ursula?

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Re: Ivy Marguerite Adams b 1906 St Pancras
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 16 December 12 09:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi Janey,

In answer to your question the birth certificate of the 28th June 1906 sub-district West St Pancras is for an 'Ivy Marguerite' father 'Henry Adams' mother 'Marguerite Adams formerly Strain.' Birth registered by 'Henry Adams, father, 35 Hawley Road St Pancras,' occupation 'licensed victualler.' Certificate dated 27th July 1906.

I found this certificate myself (ie, it was not paperwork among her things. I  did not get any of that). I worked backwards from two pieces of information.

1)  A death certificate I ordered. I know this is the right certificate. On it she is 'Ursula Ruby Adams,' born '28th June 1906, England.' Death 2nd December 1980.

2) The London Gazette article naming her as 'Shiraishi, Ivy Marguerite Ruby Ursula, known as Ursula Ruby Adams.'

On her marriage certificate 24th August 1932 she is also 'Ursula Ruby Adams' 22 years old (there is an age discrepancy here, maybe she was lying?) Shop Assistant, living in UptonPark, Forest Gate. Father Henry Adams, deceased. I know the marriage certificate is right as I know my grandfather was Hideo Shiraishi.

A photo of her attached.