Richmond Bridewell, Criminal Offence

[DudleyWinchurch]

Not sure if this is the best place for this, so mods can move if there is a more appropriate/general place.

I have a young man of 29 years, who was detained in Richmond Bridewell, in 1863, for "not going to be attested after taking the 1/-"

He appears to have served six weeks hard labour.

Would I be correct in thinking that this means that he failed to turn up after signing on for the army?   And would that have been the end of it, or would he still have been sent on to the army after his sentence?

If so, should I be also be able to find army service documentation for him?

[madpat]

You might be able to find him on Find My Past as they have army records for that period.

[DudleyWinchurch]

Thanks madpat,

I've had a look but it's a common name and, assuming that he didn't sign up before the offence, there doesn't seem to be any possible match listed.

[taramcdsmall]

Hi Dudley

I have a relation whom I found the military records for and written across the front page was 'absconded'.

Then there was no sign of him in 1901 nor 1911 so I presumed that he maybe died during the war.

Anyway, ages later I found a burial plot and lo and behold there he was.

A LOT of research later and I found a record very similar to yours - his said 'falsifying attestation'.

So, back to your chap, have your tried doing searches by address as I have had great success doing it this way ?!

Tara

[DudleyWinchurch]

Hi Tara,

thanks for the suggestion.  I'm racking my brains now to remember who it was! However, I seem to remember it was one that I picked up by doing address searches, so the answer is probably, yes?!

Unfortunately do not seem to have recorded this in my tree.  May take me some while to remember what it was all about.

Sheila

[taramcdsmall]

Ha that's hilarious 

Sounds exactly something I'd do - it can be so hard to remember everyone on the tree.

Sure if you do remember give me a shout and I'll try and help !

Tara

[DudleyWinchurch]

Found it!

Thanks for the offer Tara, but I've probably sent you on this wild goose chase before!

Complicated family. Father is John O'Brien and a boot-maker who owned a wholesale warehouse, that later went bankrupt, following one or more major thefts.

From the records, I have accumulated, I now think the father married more than once, first to a Susan/Susanna and then to a Mary Anne Quinn, as one daughter, too old to belong to the potential second marriage, gives the names of her parents at time of her marriage as John O'Brien and MaryAnne.

I am trying to piece together the family from marriages, baptisms, criminal records, newspaper references etc., but given the size of the enterprise, it is always possible that not all the O'BRIENs who lived and worked from the same address at any one time, belonged to the same family.

Among the major addresses that I have, as occupied by this family for substantial periods of time, are 9 Mecklenburgh Street, 146 Capel Street, and 37 Liffey Street, but also some other addresses which they occupied on a more temporary basis.

There is definitely a son of John and Susan called Michael, who married in 1873, and there was a Michael who was born in Kilkenny, who was living at the Capel Street address in 1863, according to the court record.  Unfortunately, it does not give next of kin.

If this is the son, Michael, then there is also another record for a Patrick O'Brien born Kilkenny, likely to be a brother.  I have Mary, Sarah, Michael and James (and the possible Patrick) in the first family, but big gaps.  There are an Elizabeth and a Kate mentioned as witnesses/sponsors, who may be sisters or wives (Kate could be Catherine, the first child of John and Mary Anne).

I have accumulated possibly all of the baptisms for the children of John and Mary Anne (or Marianne), but none with any certainty for those of John and Susan, and don't yet have Susan's maiden name.  The youngest son of John and Susan appears to have been born in 1851, not long before the remarriage, but have not found a burial for Susan, as yet.

It's a big puzzle, as I have many records for this family, but none so far that tell me who is Susan and whether I have yet found all of the first family.

Sheila

[taramcdsmall]

Hi Shelia

It's not ringing any bells ?

Are one of John's children your direct ancestor - and if so which one ?

This person as a starting point might help me, help you (if that makes sense HA)

Tara

[DudleyWinchurch]

Hi Tara,

I have Mary O'Brien, daughter of John O'Brien and Susan, who married Myles McLoughlin in 1865 in the ProCathedral (my great-great-grandparents).

Known facts are that her sister Sarah, married a Richard Leon (they have been relatively easy to find documents for, though the discrepancy here is that the Latin version of her mother's name on the marriage in 1869, looks like Marianna).  Also, that her brother James moved to Bolton and had a son called Fred and established a furniture shop (this also leads to various available documents).

I thought at first that the John who married Mary Anne Quinn in 1853 (also ProCathedral) would be a brother, but then came across another family where the father had married twice and one of the older children had listed his parents as father and the current wife at his marriage, so began to wonder).

From age at death, Sarah was born about 1848, so precedes that 1853 marriage and there were children at under 2 year intervals for quite a while after it, so difficult to see where she would fit in as a child of John and Mary Anne.

Facts about Michael are that he says his parents are John and Susan at marriage, but that earlier than that, there is a Michael living at John and Mary Anne's address who says he was born about 1832 in Kilkenny (the criminal record).  Possibly also a Patrick, born in 1834, but I haven't yet traced the family back to Kilkenny and, if the business was as large as it seems from the later bankruptsy proceedings, than there could have been cousins involved too!

The more obvious story is that John married Susan and set up his business in Kilkenny and then, as it expanded, moved to Dublin. It could also have been a family business as one reference is to a James at one of the earlier addresses.  Susan must have died between 1851 (when their son, also called James, was born) and 1853.  I can't find a burial, but perhaps that was back in Kilkenny, or perhaps just not able to match to the right burial with so little info to distinguish her? John, left with several very young children, remarried quite soon and the started the second family.  However, despite many different documents, I have no documentary evidence that the Michael who married in 1873 is the one with the criminal record in 1863.  Attempts to find his burial, to determine his age, have failed so far.

With no idea of Susan's date, or place of birth, or maiden name, I have no way of finding out more about her directly!

I've also no evidence of John's age or place of birth and can't find his burial either.

If that Michael and Patrick with the criminal records, do belong to John and Susan then I will need to be looking back to Kilkenny, and there would be plenty of time for more children in the first family.

Unfortunately, with the surname O'Brien, sometimes found just as Brien, those names are really difficult to isolate.

Kate and Elizabeth O'Brien turn up as godparents, but only after a time when these could be Catherine, the first daughter of John and Mary Anne, and Elizabeth Reid, the wife of Michael, so possibly red herrings.

It's a strange brick wall as part of the problem is that I have so many documents but can't find the detail to tie the family together properly!